Thin early rings on Osage?

[Buckeye Guy]

I presume that technically you are correct DarkSoul. That sounds like a reasonable explanation so far as my scientific knowledge takes me. I speak about these various things not typically from a scientific perspective, but from a bow making perspective. I contend that, all definitions aside, some Osage has a porouse crumbly "earlywood like" structure within the annual rings at higher levels as a percentage of the whole than others. I believe this to be true based on my experience. It is nothing more than my opinion that this stave may have that particular structure. I have used lots of it and won't turn it down as a result of this. I believe it works differently under a draw knife than rings with clearly defined late wood/earlywood rings and in a perfect world I would custom order staves without the high percentages of this crumbly stuff.
As a side note, it also seems reasonable to me that this crumbly stuff is in fact earlywood as it appears to be layed down monthly, within the annual rings in a manner not unlike the the true annual rings, just in much smaller intervals. Don't know if scientifically this holds water. But practically it does.

Slimbob
I knew exactly what you were saying
and while many of the terms we use are misnomers any way, as long as we understand one another we can still communicate well so no big deal!
early wood , late wood, are two of those examples and anytime there is a wet season or more moisture available the density of the wood being grown will change so yes we get a difference of appearance and some mixing of what has been termed early growth, late growth.
And yes it is differant to work and usally it takes a larger volume of it to make the same poundage bow as a tree that does not have this growth from the extra wet seasons !
have fun

[Badger]

  I have seen a lot of black locust with prominent lunar rings. I have worked a ton of osage myself and don't recall seeing such prominent lunar rings. I am really curious what state they came from.

[TRACY]

I see distinct boundaries between the spring or early growth and summer or late growth. That would be an easy stave to chase a specific annual ring on. I do see color variation within the summer growth on some years but not rings within rings if that makes sense. Never heard of lunar rings from a dendrology perspective. Would someone explain, sounds kinda cool


Tracy

[SLIMBOB]

Yeah, I agree Guy. I wonder if it is also a hereditary trait like ring thickness seems to be. Seems you can get different ring characteristics from neighboring trees??  Anyway, that's my take on the original question. Give me clearly defined rings and I can chase a ring almost by feel. Give me one with lots of crumbly light colored "earlywood like" matter (whatever it may actually be) and it becomes a bit more difficult. And I agree also that it will need to be a bit wider than the former. Not saying it isn't a good stave at all. It's Bodark!

[BarredOwl]

The picture is of the root end of the log for what it's worth.  I was hoping everyone would say it will be much easier when it dries down.  The early rings don't appear to be particularly thin looking at the end of the log.  But, I am having a very hard time feeling the early wood with my drawknife compared to the 15 or so staves I have worked so far.  Most have been green lately and I did chase the ring on a seasoned stave 10 years ago.  I have had no trouble following a ring on any before this one.  In fact I have found it to be quite fun till this one.  Thanks for the input.  Didn't mean to start a controversy.  The log probably doesn't have THAT much twist to it.  I have never attempted to straighten a stave so I don't know what's possible.  I would guess it might twist 45 degrees in a 60 inch run.    This tree grew in southeast Kansas. 

[osage outlaw]

Clamp the handle in a vice and use a heat gun to untwist each limb. 

[George Tsoukalas]

Just chase a ring. Go slow. Sometimes you cut through so start again. I remember with one stave I went up and down a time or 2.

See if this helps.

http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/osage.html

Sometimes the stave appears more twisted while still in the log. I don't worry about a prop twist until it approaches 30 degrees or so.

...and this.

http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/fixtwist.html

Jawge

[Badger]

  When it comes to chasing a difficult ring the mantra work slow finish faster seems to apply.

[wapiti1997]

Tree "ring thickness" is totally due to growth rate.  A tree with crown dominance will have thicker rings while one adjacent but more "shaded" will have tight rings.  While water or soils can influence growth rates or ring thickness, it's the amount or surface area of leaves that truly makes a difference (they are solar panels, that provide food for the tree through photosynthesis).

A drought or period of stress during the growing season can be seen within a growth ring, as for lunar rings it could be that with very rapidly growing wood an "early" type of ring could be deposited due to growth during full moon periods?

I like my early growth to be a little more defined, as in thicker. Working a stave outside in the sunlight it is certainly easier to see the difference in rings.

[Danzn Bar]

Very good point............Joe, Wapiti
DBar

[TRACY]

A drought or period of stress during the growing season can be seen within a growth ring, as for lunar rings it could be that with very rapidly growing wood an "early" type of ring could be deposited due to growth during full moon periods?

Thanks Joe!

I've been curious about the term and idea and even felt like I missed something in my dendrology classes at Purdue so I did a little research on lunar rings. I did not find any information that was credible or useful for lunar rings with respect to annual growth rings in trees. The few publishings on the topic refer to lunar phases and growth in plants and more specifically best times to harvest timber in temperate zones. I still like the term, it sounds cool 

Tracy

[SLIMBOB]

There have been studies done and I can't cite them for you right now, that suggest exactly what you refer to. Water uptake is greater or lesser in plants based on moon phases. These same studies and there are many suggest that wood harvested at certain periods of the moons cycle will have a greater compression strength. They also suggest the same for the season in which the wood is cut, the growing season vs the dormant season. Interesting stuff, but I don't know if in fact it holds water. Lots of old "wives tales" the suggest the same findings.

[BarredOwl]

Since we're talking about chasing rings it brings to mind a question I've had about how much of a late ring can be cut into without being "violated"?  Let's say that a particular late growth ring is 1/4" thick.  In a perfect world you would remove 100 % of the early ring above it and stop leaving a 1/4" layer of late wood across the back.  My question is, as a percentage, how deep into that 1/4" ring can I remove without "violating" it?  Is it ok as long as I don't break through to another early ring?  I am sure getting it as close to perfect is best but at what point should a bowyer drop down to another ring?

[Buckeye Guy]

As in all things there are a lot of variables 
draw weight
area of violation
they generally add up to amount of stress in a the area of the violation
And often times when the rest of the job of evening out the stress is done well you may be just fine with actually going clear thru it but all that being said stay as safe as you can till you get a good feel for things under your belt
I have found it best to leave the early growth ring on and shellacked till the bow is complete and ready for sanding then just a little scraping and sanding and your finished !
Hopefully I raised a few eyebrows and someone tries to prove me wrong but I doubt they will get it acomplished!
Don't stress so much its just wood !
Have fun

[Eric Krewson]

Barred owl, You can reduce a 1/4" ring to 1/32" and still not violate the grain.  It has been my experience that as long as you don't break through to the next layer of early wood you are good to go.