Take-down sleeves: fitting wood and sleeve selection

[DarkSoul]

I've never made a take-down bow (yet). Nor have I ever spliced two billets together to get a full length bow. I've always searched for full length staves so I didn't have to bother with such techniques. And so far, I've been very successful in finding full length staves. However, I've acquired a nice laburnum log that was only 40" in length. Additionally, I also want to make a take-down bow with sleeves one of these days, just because they are easy to transport and look awesome when you suddenly pull the limbs apart when no-one was expecting that. The laburnum would be great for a take-down, but I also want a yew longbow take-down.
I know most bowyers buy their sleeves from various sites such as 3Rivers. But those sleeves are at least 30 dollars, and then I would also have to pay for shipping. It's just too much money for me and I prefer to make all my bows myself and buy as little as possible. So over the years, I've been keeping my eyes open for metal tubes at a DIY store. I found several left overs which I could get for free . They all vary in size, shape (square and round) and material. Yet, none of them fit together snugly... So I'm trying to find a way to make them work anyway. I'm not looking for warbow weights; a nice longbow of 40-50 pounds is all I need. I've considered a few options, but I'm not sure what would be best:

• Use only one metal sleeves, and shape the wooden limb itself of the other limb, to slide into the sleeve. I've heard this could damage the wood on the pressure points where the wooden limb slides into the metal tube. True/false? Also, I've heard the wood swells or shrinks (based on EMC) and might get jammed in the metal or might be too loose on dry days. True/false?
• I could use an angle grinder to open up one tube lengthwise and slightly widen it by pulling it open. I have two ~1¾" round tubes that don't fit together by 1/16" or so. The opened up sleeves could then be screwed onto the wood, to make sure it doesn't open and further when you shoot the bow. And cover the gap and screws by leather.
• Anyone has any info regarding choice of metal? I've got a few stainless steel sleeves, which seems like the best option. I also have some regular galvanized steel tubes. Would that rust and create friction when you want to insert the other limb? Commercial sleeves are usually brass and stainless steel, so low friction and no corrosion.
• All my sleeves are welded. You can see the weld on the inside of the tube. The tubes were of course not designed to become bow sleeves. How strong would such a weld be? And where should I position the weld? Or the back, belly or the side of the handle? I'm leaning towards the side.
• Some of the tubes are 1" square. That is outside diameter, so the inside will be like 1/16" less. Would that be thick enough for a bamboo backed ipé longbow? Such a bow would be really stiff at 15/16" square, but is it stiff enough for a sleeve?

Any help would be greatly appreciated! I don't see many take-down bows here, and when I do see them, they are mostly made with commercial sleeves. I hope some people have tried to mess with metal tubes themselves.

Jorik

[Pappy]

I would say you first 2 points are true,as for making one,I always just bite the bullet just because of what you are talking about,for them to work properly and  not pop when you draw yet come apart easy they have to be almost a prefect fit.  Even the bought ones sometimes need a little tweaking and just a little tweaking can be a pain to get just right. Sorry no in site on making one. 
   Pappy

[Jim Davis]

The least expensive and simplest would require getting a piece of seamless tubing. It would be smooth inside.

Then you could fit on limb to be snug and epoxy it in and pin it for good measure. For the other limb, make it a drop-in fit, coat the inside of the tube with grease, Vasoline or wax, coat the limb stub heavily with Epoxy, push it in the sleeve and line it up with the other limb. Make a mark on the limb in line with a mark on the tube so you can line them up correctly when reassembling.

When the Epoxy has cured, you should be able to slip the second limb right out.

It's true that the wood does expand and contract,  but  not suddenly, so if you keep the bow in a place where it doesn't change temperature or humidity much,  you shooting/hunting sessions probably won't effect the wood much.

Here's a more complicated way that I like--just because I have a lathe and welder.

Jim Davis

[bubbles]

I think I spent about 5 hours with files, sandpaper and a dremel to get my `Prefitted` takedown sleeves to fit....arrrgh.  I don`t think i`ll use those metal sleeves again.  What about the fiberglass and resin method? 

[Carson (CMB)]

Jorik, sounds like a difficult undertaking.  I wonder if using one steel tube fixed to one limb, then using overlay such as antler on the other limb rather than a brass ferrule would work.  It would be easier in my mind to make something like antler or bone fit an existing sleeve snugly, than it would be a second random piece of metal.  The butt of the billet could be squared up then two opposing sides faced with antler, then square up the two bare faces and slap two more antler pieces on, then shape to fit the steel tube fixed to the other limb.  Just a thought.

Not all pre-fitted take-down sleeves are created equal bubbles.  I ordered one from the big supply place years ago and was quite dissapointed.  I tracked down the original maker, Richard Dyckhoff, whom Jay St. Charles references numerous times in his chapter on take-downs in TBB VOL III.  Richard's are superior to the nock-offs.  I now offer Richard's sleeves for sale through my website, Echo Archery.   

[bubbles]

Yeah, I should have bought from you Carson.  I went with somebody in Toronto that I think just deals with one of the big supply places. I spent as much time fitting the sleeve as on the bow. 

[mikekeswick]

Sleeves do take a long time to fit...
Jorik - I take it you've read the chapter in TTB?
I have a friend who got enough stainless tubing off ebay for about 10 sets of sleeves...it came to £9 or so....just get it as thin as you can find. Remember average stainless can and will rust given time.
Make sure the wood is very dry before starting to fit them. Like 5 - 6% m.c. Much better for it to expand a little once it's reached emc.

[DarkSoul]

Thanks for the comments so far! Keep them coming

Jim, I've seen that take-down system of yours. It is exactly the kind of ingenuity I'm looking for. Unfortunately I don't have a lathe or welder, and I don't know any friends who own either of these machines.

Bubbles, I don't mind spending five hours on getting the sleeves to fit. As long as I'll get a take-down system that can take the stress and will work for years to come, it's worth it.
The fiberglass and resin method also has it's potential, although I just don't like the idea of f!b€®gl@$$ in my bow... However, the number one reason for me not trying that method, is because I would still have to buy the fiber and epoxy. Which would probably be equally expensive as buying the metal sleeves...

Carson, that is the kind of thing I'm currently leaning towards. Use only one metal tube and reinforce the other wooden limb on the critical parts. I've seen Juri's take-down which makes use of some cow horn to reinforce the fades. I think I'll make something similar.
I like the sleeves you offer on your website. But with shipping to Europe included, and tax duties, it's just going to be too much money. They look perfect though!

Mike, I have only Vol. 1 and 2 of the bowyer's bibles. So it must be in Vol. 3...that's why I haven't seen it!
Good point to keep the wood very dry when fitting he metal. It'll shrink and expand into place once fitted. I've also thought about heating the metal sleeves, so it expands. Then it shrinks again around the wood and may not need glue at all.

[Del the cat]

Never done it, but it's on my list .
My only contribution is to say welded tube should be fine... the weld should be as strong as the parent metal.
I wouldn't slit down a tube, it will take out all it's strength
Del

[Jim Davis]

Never done it, but it's on my list .
My only contribution is to say welded tube should be fine... the weld should be as strong as the parent metal.
I wouldn't slit down a tube, it will take out all it's strength
Del

Del, I certainly agree that welded tube is strong enough. My first screw joint takedown used it, in fact,  the ugly uncovered coupling above is that one. My only complaint  about welded tube is that  the seam is in the way inside and has to be accommodated by fitting the wood, or, in my case, boring in the lathe to remove the seam.

BTW, it was still strong enough even with the seam machined away inside.

Jim

[Carson (CMB)]

Jorik, Thanks for sharing Juri's take-down.  I had not seen that before.  I like the deflex built into his system.