Tiller shape/advice?

[Crogacht]

Hi guys,

I'm playing with another stave that I started awhile ago and wondered if I could get some advice before I go too far in the wrong direction like last time 

This is a stave from a small 2-3 inch Lancewood sapling, which is native to New Zealand. The wood is quite dense and hard, but seems fairly elastic. Lancewood seems to take a lot of set before failing, assuming you remove the ridges, and that brings me to the next bit.

Lancewood has very deep furows/ridges all over it running up the trunk and if you don't decrown it, the stess gets concentrated on the ridges and cracks. Shamusrobert has tried with the ridges on and ended up with cracks so I've taken his advice regarding that. Lancewood seems to be diffuse porous like many New Zealand natives, as I can't see any growth rings.

So with the removal of the ridges and the small diameter of the sapling, the width/thickness were basically already determined for me. It was probably never suitable for a bow, but I didn't know that back then, so I'll try and if it doesn't work, then back to Elm

I'm leaving  the handle stiff and it still has the ridges on it. If by some miracle this becomes a bow, I'll probably leave the handle as it is.

The stave is 70 inches ttt and has ended up with a slight reverse handle kind of a thing going on. I've drawn a picture of the cross-section of the limbs as (I think?) that will dictate the tiller shape.

There is no width taper until the last 4 - 6 inches, which I've left stiff, so I think that means I need a fairly elliptical tiller? Basically the opposite of a pyramid bow. But not sure.

I want to give myself as much of a chance of finishing this as possible (unlike the last one which was rushed and ruined), so I'll leave it alone for a few days and see what everyone thinks.

I think the left limb needs to be working more mid limb? The right limb I think is looking somewhat elliptical... but my eye for tiller is not good.

Thank you immensely for any help, its very much appreciated. The worst part about breaking a stave is feeling like you've wasted someones time who gave advice.

[bubby]

SF IRS it have a reverse handle or am I seeing things

[BL]

I think the left limb needs to be working more mid limb? The right limb I think is looking somewhat elliptical... but my eye for tiller is not good.

I think your eye is just fine.

[Crogacht]

SF IRS it have a reverse handle or am I seeing things

Yeah, like I said, it has a bit of a reverse handle thing going on 

I'm not even sure why to be honest, I could have probably make it a normal handle, but for some reason that's what I did. Some combination of small diameter/ridge removal/poor thought process, but that's what I'm working with now 

[bubby]

ok the left is only bending at the fade come out 10" and work it from there for now, and it look's like the right can use the same treatment for now stay away from the fades , have you got a gizmo or a 6" straight edge

[Crogacht]

Thanks bubby,

That left limb is a little deflex-y too, so I have to keep that in mind too I suppose.

I will make up a gizmo and try it out.

[Del the cat]

Tiller it whatever shape you want. Thickness taper is the main thing, The front profile is irrelevant (Others will strongly dissagree with this view tho'  ).
See this thread:-
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45989.msg625332/topicseen.html#msg625332
Del

[Crogacht]

Tiller it whatever shape you want. Thickness taper is the main thing, The front profile is irrelevant (Others will strongly dissagree with this view tho'  ).
See this thread:-
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45989.msg625332/topicseen.html#msg625332
Del

It seems I'm forgetting things faster than I'm learning them. I read that blog post of yours about the subject and it made a lot of sense to me, but I guess I forgot it again since then 

[Crogacht]

I've been pondering on this stave for a few days, and have a few questions before I continue with it tomorrow.

The bow is the same width from handle to ~ 5 inches before the tips where I've just narrowed it slightly, but left it thick. ie. it has no fades as such. Does this force me into a bendy handle design? Or do I just leave the fades alone from now on and have them bend just a little with a stiff handle?

I guess the real question is, can you substitute thickness for width in the fade area? I don't have  the width, so if I leave it thick, will it achieve the same thing or will I end up with a lot of set?

If it's going to be a problem, I might take off the ridges from the handle too and make it kind of ELB design. I have the right shape and length for it, I guess... I'm kind of leaning towards that actually... then I can kinda get rid of that weird reverse handle thing I've got going on.

Semi-serious question: The stave is basically the middle of a small sapling, has it been stressed too much to flip it over so the back is now the belly? I've pulled it to about 30lb on the long string.

The more I think about ELB design for this stave, the more it makes sense. What do you guys think?

[Crogacht]

I guess the real question is, can you substitute thickness for width in the fade area? I don't have  the width, so if I leave it thick, will it achieve the same thing or will I end up with a lot of set?

The more I think about ELB design for this stave, the more it makes sense. What do you guys think?

Have my questions crossed over here? I think I pretty much already have an ELB design. Except my handle is a little too thick to get that slight flex going.

Am I considering changing the design to what it already basically was? 

 

Hopefully I'll be able to look back at these threads one day and laugh..

Trying to make a stick bend - it blows my mind   

[DarkSoul]

Tiller it whatever shape you want. Thickness taper is the main thing, The front profile is irrelevant (Others will strongly dissagree with this view tho'  ).
See this thread:-
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45989.msg625332/topicseen.html#msg625332
Del

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think you're missing the point. Yes, YOU can tiller it whatever shape YOU want, regardless of the front profile. HOWEVER, the wood has it's limits. YOU may want to tiller a bow so it has two hinges, but if the wood cracks, you still don't have a bow. The wood also has its limits and desires! If you want the lowest chance of a broken bow, you need to spread out the forces over as big a surface as possible. In the front profile that is displayed here, that would mean the tiller shape should be elliptical. If the front profile were a pyramid, the tiller shape that spreads out the forces the most, is a circular tiller. So if you want the highest chance of survival for this bow, you need to create an elliptical tiller.

I'm not sure why you've left the ridges on the handle. It seem uncomfortable to me. I can't imagine these ridges will make a nice, smooth and round surface for your hand - even if covered in leather.

Of course you can let the bow bend in the handle! The bow doesn't know if you want a stiff or bendy handle. The bow just follows the laws of physics: wider or thicker profile means less bend there. Narrower handle can still mean a stiff handle, as long as it is thick enough to compensate. And if it doesn't bend, it can't take set. Your current width lay-out just simply matches the width profile for an English longbow. But if you leave the handle a bit thicker than the fades (say 1/8"), you'll instantly have a stiff handle. Physics.

Your tips are very square, rough and thick at the moment. You want the tips not to bend, obviously, but there's no point in leaving them this big. If you reduce the last 5" of the limb to a thickness and width of 5/8", they will still not bend. If you continue tillering with the tips like this, you'll have difficulty in getting the limbs to bend 6" to 8" from the tips, since there will be a weird transition from the bulky tips to the bending limb. Shape the tips now so they look like nearly finished tips: the sooner it looks like a bow, the sooner it acts like a bow. You should also shorten that long string a bit, so it applies a more realistic pressure on the bow. By the way, don't use a tiller gizmo on these kind of character staves with deflex and/or reflex. It will give you a false reading; it works best on straight limbed board bows.

[bubby]

Darksoul I don't see any real Character on this stave and don't see  reason why a gizmo wont work on it, I've used straight edges on wonkyer staves than this

[DarkSoul]

I don't see too much deflex either, but based on this:

That left limb is a little deflex-y too, so I have to keep that in mind too I suppose.

and the observation that the two limbs are not in a straight line (there appears to be deflex in the handle), I think you should be careful with that gizmo is this stave.

[PEARL DRUMS]

My advice is to take it off the tree until its ready for such. I can tell by looking at it she is stiff as a board. Keep it on the floor and get it moving enough to low brace, then toss it up. Skip that long string all together. Gizmo or straight edge, use them! The problem with tree'ing a bow way too early is you end up pulling it too far too soon because 1-2" of tip movement does nothing and you want to see/check more. Grab a finished bow of glass or wood and flex the tip on the floor. You'll know better what to feel for that way.

[JonW]

My advice is to take it off the tree until its ready for such. I can tell by looking at it she is stiff as a board. Keep it on the floor and get it moving enough to low brace, then toss it up. Skip that long string all together. Gizmo or straight edge, use them! The problem with tree'ing a bow way too early is you end up pulling it too far too soon because 1-2" of tip movement does nothing and you want to see/check more. Grab a finished bow of glass or wood and flex the tip on the floor. You'll know better what to feel for that way.

Totally! The sooner you develop a good eye for floor tillering the better your tillering and how quickly you can get a bow to "come around" gets.