Author Topic: True or False?  (Read 4506 times)

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Offline DarkSoul

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Re: True or False?
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2014, 09:21:54 am »
How do we define a pyramid bow? And what does "bend evenly" mean? Is a pyramid bow any type of bow that has the limbs tapering in a straight line? Would an English longbow, tapering from 1¼" wide at the handle to ½" wide at the tips, be called a pyramid bow then? And what about 4" wide at the fade, tapering to ½" nocks in a straight line? Or 3" wide tapering to 2" wide nocks? Or how about 1" wide fades, tapering to 4" wide tips? That's (part of) a pyramid as well, right? Just an upside down pyramid. And how about a bow tapering from 2" wide fades to ½" wide tips, that is 90" long? How much of a pyramid can we actually achieve in a bow that will always have nocks wider than zero inches (the tip of an actual pyramid)?
And how about "bend evenly". A circular tiller is "evenly"? And an elliptical tiller is not? Depending on the width of the bow, an elliptical tiller can still be the correct tiller that spreads out the load as evenly as possible.

In my opinion, a "pyramid bow" is a stiff-handled bow that has a more or less uniform limb thickness, with a straight line width taper from fade to tip resulting in a circular tiller. I call the thickness "more or less uniform", since you preferably want the tips to be a little bit thicker in most cases, to provide enough rigidity with the string grooves filed in.
A bow tapering from 1½" wide fades to ½" wide tips does still meet the pyramid width taper rule, but it will not have a more or less uniform thickness if you want to achieve a circular tiller. You would have to decrease the thickness towards the tips, if you still want this circular tiller, which is what we do in ELBs. A bow tapering from 4" wide fades to ½" wide tips will be quite the contrary. It will bend too much near the tips and the fades will be too stiff. So you would need to reduce the thickness near the fades.
In my opinion, a sensible pyramid bow will be tapering from 2½" wide fades (maybe 2¼" works as well) to ½" wide tips. The thickness could then probably be machine made with a thickness planer/sander to about 3/8" for a 40-50 pound bow. Then you would just have to glue down a thicker handle, while you could use powertools for the width taper (circular saw or band saw) and thickness (planer/sander). Only minor tillering would be necessary to create a circular tiller then.
So does "a pyramid bow of equal thickness always bend evenly regardless of starting width"? No, it doesn't. I've given several weird bow designs where Badger's intuition would probably feel that there's something wrong in that statement. The starting width at the fades would have to be around 2½" wide in my opinion to create a sensible pyramid bow. With other widths the bow would not have an equal thickness if you're looking for a circular tiller.
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Offline Badger

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Re: True or False?
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2014, 11:19:32 am »
  Good post Darksoul

Offline Knapper

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Re: True or False?
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2014, 11:55:16 am »
I'm with Bubby. I've built a lot of board pyramid style bows (Lams and stave bows) , and I do! mic all bows while in the tiller process about every 5". (just something I do, and keep logs from each bow on limb thickness). I have found after tillering that most will have a slight taper in thickness from fades to tip.
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Offline JackCrafty

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Re: True or False?
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2014, 03:34:02 pm »
Good points, DarkSoul.  I think the "bend evenly" means no flat spots.  This is pretty obvious with bow limbs produced by machine (straight and flat with no waviness as seen from the side view) but not so obvious with character wood.  The benefit of a pyramid design with consistent thickness is the way that it takes the guess work out of the tillering process.

I vote "true" as long as we are not talking about circular tiller vs elliptical tiller (or any other shape of tiller).
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Offline scp

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Re: True or False?
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2014, 08:22:21 pm »
In my opinion, a "pyramid bow" is a stiff-handled bow that has a more or less uniform limb thickness, with a straight line width taper from fade to tip resulting in a circular tiller.
I don't understand why it would have a circular tiller when its limbs are tapered. If limb thickness is uniform, shouldn't its limbs have uniform width to have a circular tiller?

Offline Badger

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Re: True or False?
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2014, 08:38:18 pm »
SCP, I see the logic behind that if you took a long straight thin piece of wood you could bend it into a perfect hoop. But the geometry changes because of an anchor point at the handle and the string angle pulling on it.

Offline scp

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Re: True or False?
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2014, 09:00:39 pm »
If we include the stiff handle in the picture, the tiller just cannot be circular. I'm not sure what it means for one limb to have a circular tiller compared to an arc. In most cases, some length of the tips are usually not bending much.

Offline scp

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Re: True or False?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2014, 09:24:34 pm »
I just remembered that the pyramid tapering actually closely matches the relative burden of each portion of limb from the handle to the tip. That does mean that the bending part of the limb would have a relatively close to circular tiller. Sorry for the confusion.

Offline JonW

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Re: True or False?
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2014, 10:16:57 pm »
Dang! All this time I just thought I was making pyramid bows :o

mikekeswick

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Re: True or False?
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2014, 01:58:58 am »
SCP - wood at the same thickness can bend only so far. If it's all the same thickness it should be bending the same amount.
Thickness determines the amount of bend acceptable by the wood.

Offline scp

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Re: True or False?
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2014, 01:47:02 pm »
SCP - wood at the same thickness can bend only so far. If it's all the same thickness it should be bending the same amount.
Thickness determines the amount of bend acceptable by the wood.
Interesting point. In that case, I guess the variation in limb width does not matter in determining the side profile. So such variation in a pyramid bow is only to increase the efficiency, but not for side profile. Even though this sounds quite reasonable, I'm not certain that this is the case in reality. Do you have any actual test data?