why a molly?

[blackhawk]

Here it is...my big long explanation and conclusion....drum roll please!!!!

The nut holding the drawknife plays the biggest factor more than anything else!!! 

[Poggins]

Trying to think of a reason why I've been trying them .
Best reasons I can think of is :
I like the way some of them look ( those that have that almost half circle in the working limbs)
I want to try different styles of bows ( want to build more than just one or two styles , I know several folks that build recurves and standard self bows and that's it )
I like making shavings ( stress relief )
Because its there ? ( sounded good )
Or maybe it's like Blackhawk said ( the nut behind the drawknife )

Well whichever sounds good to you is my reason .

[Badger]

Here it is...my big long explanation and conclusion....drum roll please!!!!

The nut holding the drawknife plays the biggest factor more than anything else!!! 

DRUM ROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[blackhawk]

Hmm? How to say this modestly in humbleness?

I think its safe to say that I've played and experimented with the lever bow designs as much as anyone else in the last few years,and maybe in our modern times(last decade etc..),and trying to find the best way to execute them, and to tweak and perfect them to the highest levels possible with them...I've tried lots of different ratios of percentage of lever to working limb,countless wood species,boards,staves,laminates,stiff handles,bendy handles,really short lengths,super long lengths,straight levers,slightly reflexed levers,curved levers to full on big hooked static levers,straight working limbs,deflexed handle,R/D,etc etc...you name it and I've tried almost everything you can concoct and imagine,and configure into a lever style bow...and I still haven't quite come to a end all ends conclusion either with em(and never will either)...but I think I've gained enough ground to say I've got it narrowed down pretty good.

Here's a few of my favorites that not only just shoot fast,but also score very well in all the other categories of what makes a good bow a good bow(to me at least IMO)..which to me these days adds up more and is worth more than speed alone...notice the similarity in all of them.

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=42911.0

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,36920.0.html

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=40916.0

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,38078.0.html


Where I'm at right now is that I like my lever to be around 33-40% of the length of my limb...it seems to be the "sweet spot"..and less and you don't get enough leverage dynamics,and anything longer seems to be like a 2 year old trying to swing a major league sluggers bat for a lack of better terminology...which in most bows ends up being 8-10" long or so on average...and I like the first couple inches of my levers to "give" at or near full draw..that way I still have leverage from them,AND they are as light as possible in mass...and reflexing or curving them helps "stiffen them"(meaning maybe a lighter lever yet) and when they give a lil they still maintain a better and lower string angle than a straight lever....the above bow links I posted all have a similar degree of curve as well...~35-45°...which is funny cus patm mentioned another's study finding the same results as my hillbilly bow making ways...also another thing is if the first couple inches give then only 6-8" are really stiff and also coincide as to what Marc mentions...and if done right you now have a really low mass outer half of your limbs..more so than a lot of other designs...and if done right this is why and how this design can really shine...but that's the hard part for 90% + of the folks I see out there trying to make them...like I said...it pretty much has more to to with the nut holding the drawknife...

Also to add onto what Steve said in incorporating the skinny stiff leverage tips into other designs really gives them leverage almost in the same way...I pretty much now incorporate that into a lot of my bows regardless if its a "molly" or not.

Ironically and funny enough is the similarity of some of my favorites to a Turkish horn bow...its almost like a self bow form of one ..meaning its a lil longer,slightly wider limbs,less setback limbs etc so that it survives as a bow because we know that unbacked wood can't take and match the elasticity limits of sinew and horn...and they also seem to be like a horn bow in that they tend to do better and shine brighter in heavier weights like over 50 pounds..although a lighter one will still do well enough,but it just seems like there is little difference between a 40 and 60 pound bows levers mass wise(even when both are made right),and we all know the 60 pounds is gonna throw that stiff armed lever harder than the 40 pound one...

OK..I'm outta wind...

End of chapter one!!!

[PatM]

That pretty much sums it up perfectly.
 It gets even more interesting when you step them up past that 60 pound mark. That's when you can really see the benefit of the little league bat ends combined with the Babe Ruth inner limb. 

[huisme]

Blackhawk says it better. He has more posted, too, so I'll keep following his example

I especially like that BL molle, looks almost like my few 'ideal' molles I've made though I confess I almost always shy away from recurving the levers

All my favorite molles have been over 45# and had no room in the tips for side grooves with just a touch of bend at full draw (not enough to crush the itty-bitty belly). I still think, and the math adds up, it takes more mass to make a wider outer limb stiff than a narrow one, which is what started me on my first molle and took me deeper into the addiction of bowyery.

Who knows, maybe when I've got the courage to bend the levers I'll have to send something to Blackhawk and see what he thinks

[PatM]

For sure. Pics are worth a thousand words.

[PrimitiveTim]

Ugh, reading this thread is actually making me want to make one.  First time I saw one I thought they looked stupid but I saw some at the classic that were sweet looking. 

[Badger]

   Good explanation Clint. One thing you said that I liked and agree with 100% is that you cannot get a conclusive answer when working with wood. You can narrow it down pretty close. I would build bow after bow after bow with just slight differerences and not come up with anything really conclusive about which was better, but I could tell what direction it was going. The molly principle is incorporated into most all bows anymore.

[bubby]

I liberated some demesions from Blackhawk and built a few with that design, plus I've built several standard mollies, and damned if Chris's design didn't make a faster better performing bow, i'll be the first to admit I ain't no Blackhawk but I build a decent bow, and I got an idea what I want out of a bow, i'm going to build some more with the demensions I stole, I mean borrowed from Chris and add some of my own tweaks and see what I can improve, that's the point right, to build the best bow you can cause if you ain't going foreward your going back

[Badger]

Did I say Clint? I meant to say Chris. I mix up handles with names constantly.

[DarkSoul]

I've made only one molly, but it was an impressive thing. I want to make more mollies, but I need the right wood and stave for it. I'm still contemplating spliced in tips, made from a lighter wood. Such as hazel tips spliced in black locust, or something similar. I also want to make a bamboo/hickory backed ipé with a reverse tapered tip core laminate out of a light wood. So the ipé gets lost in the stiff tips and the lighter core wood takes over. It ultimately just has to do with lowering the weight in the tips, while maintaining stiffness.

Blackhawk, thanks for the inspiration. I like this kind of summary on a bunch of bows you've made. Of course I could find all these bows, but combined with your short story it helps me to see the similarities in these bows. It certainly saves me a few lousy experimental bows that I would have to make myself if it wasn't for your experience.

[PatM]

I have one with spliced in bamboo levers (hollow) 
 I inserted a short wooden plug to solidify it enough to form the v splice and did the same at the very tips to allow the nocks.

[BL]

Being newer to this, I've got a couple possibly newbish questions. 

Conceptually speaking, don't most woods have a similar "dry-fire" recovery speed?  With that in mind the biggest consideration it seems people have mentioned is the importance of having the draw weight high enough to compensate for the levers' displaced load and bring the bow itself back to the full dry-fire speed of the materials.  After that point, you're adding performance to the arrow speed and taking advantage of the leverage.  Does anyone have higher-poundage versions tested compared to more conventional designs of the same weight?  Would the required width to make that poundage be a limiting or at least prohibitive factor?  Has anyone noticed a greater advantage to the design with overall shorter bows as well, where the width needed is more feasible?  Who wants to tackle the 4"-wide 20% working-limb 50" molly? 

Great read, guys.  Thanks for the brain food.

[PatM]

A heavier bow doesn't have to be that much wider and yes an 80 pound mollie does outshoot a conventional design. For me anyway.