The Showdown

[SLIMBOB]

Hey, I for one enjoyed the thread. Yeah it got a little nasty when it shouldn't have, but patm is right in my mind in that a man should be capable of defending himself. If he is called out in a public forum then defending himself publically is expected.  Maybe I am from a different generation or a different culture geographically than some, but I saw a good debate that just got a little to personal in nature, but it cleared the air. Sometimes, that's what it takes.

[Swatch]

I just read this thread all the way through, hoping to find an apology and that things would be settled in a friendly way. This thread violated Rule #5 in the Message Board Rules.

This has made me more determined to never do any personal attacks and let's keep this forum friendly, positive , and encouraging.

[Badger]

  Believe it or not there are a lot of things we still don't understand about bows and arrows. A good debate never has to get personnal. Sometimes two different lines of thought being presented for the readers to sort out on their own is as good as it gets. I never have a problem with being challenged. I have a lot of experience making bows but I find myself being wrong quite often about things. Things that I felt like I had proved to myself by trial and error sometimes turn out differently than I thought because I didn't do enough trials. I appreciate and will gladly argue a counter view on things. It doesn't mean I have a problem with the guy I am argueing with it might just mean we disagree on one issue.

   Something that I have been playing with lately that I am finding very encouraging is making wider bows for lower over all mass. This goes against everything I have said in the past. It may just apply to certain woods and not others but I am seeing it with more and more regularity. The idea is that by maiking a bow 1/2 wider than I normally would is allowing me to make the bow much thinner than I could have at the norrower width. This could only be true if more wood is being damaged by compression than I had previously given credit for. I am finding very low hysterisis in wide thin bows, very low set and excellent performance. The biggest surprise is that the mass is comming out lighter. On the down side very thin bows .325 for instance on a 66" bow hard hard to tiller and easy to hinge. Another debate??? Don't dare disagree me!! Who do you think you are anyway??

[PatM]

I agree with your new findings Steve, it was your mass theory that I didn't buy into.

[Badger]

  Pat, it was actually the mass theory that steered me in this direction. It kind of went like this. I said ok I will just make the bows extra wide and then side tiller them to hit my mass. Funny thing was I was hitting mass without norrowing, limbs much thinner, much crispier and faster. Using a very flat belly is the key to wide bows being an effective way to lower mass. I started playing around with going increasingly wider, nothing really drastic but maybe 30% wider than I would normaly go. I continue to be surprised at how well it is working out. Osage bows 2" wide sounds rediculous for a 50# bow 60" long, I still finished up with 18 oz mass weight. I haven't done enough to know how wood specific this is and the extra thin limbs make them a pain in the ass to tiller but I am liking the results.

[JonW]

Steve if you were to start another thread on this subject I would chime in. I hate that I have even replied to this thread

[Badger]

Steve if you were to start another thread on this subject I would chime in. I hate that I have even replied to this thread

  Good idea.

[james parker]

well,,most of the time I keep my mouth shut here on pa,, some of you guys know me, some of  you don't,, from time to time I post some here,,a while back I was appointed as a moderator,, im not going to rant, play the blame game, or try to moderate on this subject,,, I just want everyone to know, the time that individuals have spent here on the showdown to just stop and think about how much of that time could have been spent making a bow, trying a new design, pushing skills to the limit and beyond.. time is something you cannot get back,, lets just build some bows.............. just saying  jp

[bubby]

well,,most of the time I keep my mouth shut here on pa,, some of you guys know me, some of  you don't,, from time to time I post some here,,a while back I was appointed as a moderator,, im not going to rant, play the blame game, or try to moderate on this subject,,, I just want everyone to know, the time that individuals have spent here on the showdown to just stop and think about how much of that time could have been spent making a bow, trying a new design, pushing skills to the limit and beyond.. time is something you cannot get back,, lets just build some bows.............. just saying  jp




well said, build your bows and move on

[George Tsoukalas]

Steve, there are a lot of things I don't understand about bows, too, and I've  been makin' and breakin' since the late 80's.

I have to admit I prefer makin' over breakin'!

Jawge

[PatM]

well,,most of the time I keep my mouth shut here on pa,, some of you guys know me, some of  you don't,, from time to time I post some here,,a while back I was appointed as a moderator,, im not going to rant, play the blame game, or try to moderate on this subject,,, I just want everyone to know, the time that individuals have spent here on the showdown to just stop and think about how much of that time could have been spent making a bow, trying a new design, pushing skills to the limit and beyond.. time is something you cannot get back,, lets just build some bows.............. just saying  jp

   However this is getting a bunch of bows built that likely wouldn't have otherwise.  It's always someone daring another person or us daring ourselves that makes those limits be pushed.

[Marc St Louis]

Believe it or not most of my replies were not anger driven.  There were a couple times Adam ticked me off but I was amused much more often than I was ticked and the rest of the time it was neither the one nor the other.  I hope that we sorted out some misconceptions and that was my main goal.

I do believe that the experienced bowyers we have here have a sort of responsibility to those coming up behind us to make sure that they are not misinformed.  I'm not saying I know everything because quite frankly I learn something from the people on this site practically every day.

One thing we do have to remember is that it is easy enough to be misunderstood when having a conversation with someone face to face.  This medium of exchanging words/ideas makes it even easier to be misunderstood since we don't have the facial clues or vocal intonations to tell the person we are talking with that we are joking around.  That's why I try to keep my emotions under check but sometimes it's hard 

In any case if I did inadvertently offend anyone then I do apologize. 

[BOWMAN53]

wouldnt that be cool if we had that feature on here

[PatM]

A much better showdown would actually be a Warbow versus "other" bows of similar draw weight.
 That might be a better one to introduce on the Warbow/ELB forum.
 Who wants to build that 130 pound static recurve that will toss a heavy arrow better than a longbow?

[UserNameTaken]

If this thread bothers so many of you, don't read it. Some of us clearly found it interesting. A perfect & civil debate would be nice, but that's not typically how debates work. And, a slightly heated debate is probably better than no debate at all.

I'd really like to see somebody make the bow. I'd do it, but I'm still having trouble with my tillering after several years of making bows. I'd probably injure myself making a bow like that. It'd look like Vlad The Impaler came through town.