The Showdown

[adb]

I don't know you heavy flatbow makers out there... what would be a challenging width limitation? 2" max at the fades? Like Dragonman said, it should look like a 'normally proportioned' flatbow. I'm not trying to change the rules, but I do want this to push the ability of everyone who tries it. I'm not pulling my offer either.

I think Steve said 2 1/2" should do it a couple posts back. Can you make it work at 2"?

[adb]

I know nobody is realy interested in my opinion, but i'm inspired to give it anyway.  The original issue was one of making a normal design bow 100#  60" long .....which is obviously difficult, thats why nobodys shown any pics of one so far.....

then badger or someone chimed in with,just make it wider, and obviously if you go excessively wide you can make a short bow of any weight...but that wasbt the point of the challenge.IMO...and this  isnt what a bowyer would normaly make...then it becomes a weird extreme design  ......so this is where it changed..its the same as making an excesively long bow to prove a point.....Adb didnt change his mind , the criteria changed

so I'm with Adb on this one...it was originaly a good challenge...but the bow shouldnt lhave excessive width, this doent prove anything.

and ....I'm not impressed with Marcs boasting and  insulting and then backing down...this doesnt look good...sorry marc but its true... you said too much to back down... not taking sides here just the way I see it.....

Dave

I think you're reaching there Dave.  Quite frankly I don't recall any boasting.  What I did was make a statement of fact, which I made not only from experience but from common sense.  At no time did I ever have any intention of making such a bow and I never said I would.  Just because Adam wants it doesn't mean we all have to jump to do it.  The fact is that Adam wants me to prove to him that I can make such a bow and lets not make any mistakes about this.  What he is actually doing is questioning my abilities as a bowyer and he has essentially said as much.  The fact is that I have nothing to prove to him and quite frankly he doesn't deserve it anyway.  Adam's attitude and approach is full of anger and nothing good will come of that.

Essentially what it boils down to is that if he thinks he can't do it then I guess he can't.  I know I can, there would no doubt be some design difficulties to overcome especially around the handle but those wouldn't be of great consequence, all you have to do is make sure your handle is SOLID.

In any case Dave, why don't you point out where I did this boasting?   You never know, maybe Alzheimer is finally kicking in 

Marc... you make me laugh. Truly laugh. You keep saying this would be easy, so, once again, all I'm saying is PROVE IT. If not to me, then to yourself and everyone else who's following this. I will be the first person to sincerely congratulate you if you can produce this bow. I'm not being facetious, I mean that.

[adb]

Maybe I should get off my a$$ and join this challenge. Can I still join, or is it too late? Save myself a static recurve!

I can't imagine why I'd ever build this bow, but Marc says it's easy... maybe I could even do it! 

[adb]

By the by... the person that taught me a fair bit about gluing and how that works is PAs very own Justin Snyder. I remember a thread many years ago when I first started doing this, and he mentioned that gluing (with the type of glue I'm using) happens at the molecular level, and he showed me the article in a PM to back that up. Unfortunately, I can't find it, but it was there, in black & white.

I gotta stop now... this is like crack! I need to get some work done.

[Marc St Louis]

Marc... you make me laugh. Truly laugh. You keep saying this would be easy, so, once again, all I'm saying is PROVE IT. If not to me, then to yourself and everyone else who's following this. I will be the first person to sincerely congratulate you if you can produce this bow. I'm not being facetious, I mean that.

You just don't get it Adam.  I guess it comes from a lack of experience.

You should do it but if you do then do it with a positive attitude

P.S.  Maybe what it is is a lack of experience making bows with wood other than boards

[PatM]

The woods you are sensibly going to use in selfbow form  for this design are  not going to even look as odd as a West Coast paddle bow.
 It comes down to the wood and how much you want to dance on the line of performance versus durability.
   Doesn't make sense to have a definite width challenge unless you want to pick  only one kind  of wood.
 I would say 2 inches for Osage(Osage guru's  will likely scoff and say 1.75) and between 2 &1/8 - 2&1/4 for White woods from  HHB to Maple.
 I  will be using  Elm for sure.
 

[Marc St Louis]

I think 2" of HHB would be enough as well Pat.  It is an incredibly strong and elastic wood.  This bow is 60" long, less than 2" wide and pulls over 70# at 30"

[PatM]

Adam,  The "ease" of making it has to do with just executing another efficient flatbow that happens to be of higher weight.
 The part that people are baulking at is sacrificing a perfect stave to make a bow that may be useless to them and anybody else and the broader working surface is more time consuming to work on depending on tool choices and availability.
 If someone were to go looking for a tree holding this type of stave it's going to be extra work cutting, splitting etc. unless they happen upon an oval tree.
 It's just "more of the same" type of work than degree of difficulty.
 None of the above bothers me.
 

[dragonman]

ok Marc,' boasting ' was maybe too strong a word to use, but claiming to be able to do somethig easily that is dificult, without having done it yet, isnt exactly humble!  and should be backed up by proving it, to maintain ones integrity......but I agree its a lot of work and life is busy... no insults intended here.. I respect you and you work, just giving an opinion

and Badger, your right about the width, I wasnt thinking clearly,  I have never made a bow over 75# myself....your points on width clarified something I hadnt properly understood , so thanks for that

I agree also about the discussion being a good one,,,,it good to get involved in heated debate, more interesting, than all  the regular......"ooh nicebow...lovely bow...well done"  stuff....

I for one have learnt something new.....so thanks

Dave

[son of massey]

By the by... the person that taught me a fair bit about gluing and how that works is PAs very own Justin Snyder. I remember a thread many years ago when I first started doing this, and he mentioned that gluing (with the type of glue I'm using) happens at the molecular level, and he showed me the article in a PM to back that up. Unfortunately, I can't find it, but it was there, in black & white.

I gotta stop now... this is like crack! I need to get some work done.

What glue are you using? I would like to look into it if there is another mechanism of action than that which I am familiar with.

The thing is that (with most adhesives, I do not profess to be familiar with all of them) what you said was completely correct. Or way off base. The trick is that a molecular change (chemical reaction) is taking place in the glue, and the glue is different at the end of gluing than at the beginning-usually, a polymer is forming-but the thing being glued is just being anchored there and is the same material before as after for the most part.

The context of the discussion where glue was brought up suggests that a change is occurring to the bulk wood material, which I find unlikely. If the point was just that chemistry is happening than I applaud you and suggest you continue to point that out to people.

[BOWMAN53]

this is getting out of hand.  only thing ive seen here is marc having to defend himself from having his bow making skill insulted. and he has a point, he doesnt need to make anything for anyone to prove anything. we all know marc is a great bowyer, so what do you gain by challenging him like this? even if he does decide to do it, your not going to all of a sudden like him again when he is succesful. this is just a childish and personal attack and honestly im amazed this post hasnt been locked yet.

[Marc St Louis]

Adam brought up the glue issue again so I'm going to add what I, let's say, believe. 

Modern glues are great for holding 2  or 3 pieces of wood together but most of them need low clamp pressure and some work better if the clamp pressure is almost non-existent, epoxy being one.  That means that if your clamp pressure is too high then you will have a starved glue joint and that is not good.  Essentially then you will have a thin line of glue holding the 2 pieces of wood together, and perhaps as Adam is suggesting some of this glue goes into the wood on the molecular level.  Now the problem with modern glue, because it is a plastic, is that even though it is fairly elasticity, meaning it will stretch or compress quite well, it's return from being deformed by this stretching or compressing is pathetic.  Therefore this will affect how the wood springs back when being bent during the draw.  The more glue lines you have the more effect it will have on the bow.  As I can see it this is why a 2 lam bow will outperform a multi-lam bow every time, as the flightshooting records seems to prove.

[adb]

By the by... the person that taught me a fair bit about gluing and how that works is PAs very own Justin Snyder. I remember a thread many years ago when I first started doing this, and he mentioned that gluing (with the type of glue I'm using) happens at the molecular level, and he showed me the article in a PM to back that up. Unfortunately, I can't find it, but it was there, in black & white.

I gotta stop now... this is like crack! I need to get some work done.

What glue are you using? I would like to look into it if there is another mechanism of action than that which I am familiar with.

The thing is that (with most adhesives, I do not profess to be familiar with all of them) what you said was completely correct. Or way off base. The trick is that a molecular change (chemical reaction) is taking place in the glue, and the glue is different at the end of gluing than at the beginning-usually, a polymer is forming-but the thing being glued is just being anchored there and is the same material before as after for the most part.

The context of the discussion where glue was brought up suggests that a change is occurring to the bulk wood material, which I find unlikely. If the point was just that chemistry is happening than I applaud you and suggest you continue to point that out to people.

TB3.
I find it unlikely too.

[adb]

I know nobody is realy interested in my opinion, but i'm inspired to give it anyway.  The original issue was one of making a normal design bow 100#  60" long .....which is obviously difficult, thats why nobodys shown any pics of one so far.....

then badger or someone chimed in with,just make it wider, and obviously if you go excessively wide you can make a short bow of any weight...but that wasbt the point of the challenge.IMO...and this  isnt what a bowyer would normaly make...then it becomes a weird extreme design  ......so this is where it changed..its the same as making an excesively long bow to prove a point.....Adb didnt change his mind , the criteria changed

so I'm with Adb on this one...it was originaly a good challenge...but the bow shouldnt lhave excessive width, this doent prove anything.

and ....I'm not impressed with Marcs boasting and  insulting and then backing down...this doesnt look good...sorry marc but its true... you said too much to back down... not taking sides here just the way I see it.....

Dave

I think you're reaching there Dave.  Quite frankly I don't recall any boasting.  What I did was make a statement of fact, which I made not only from experience but from common sense.  At no time did I ever have any intention of making such a bow and I never said I would.  Just because Adam wants it doesn't mean we all have to jump to do it.  The fact is that Adam wants me to prove to him that I can make such a bow and lets not make any mistakes about this.  What he is actually doing is questioning my abilities as a bowyer and he has essentially said as much.  The fact is that I have nothing to prove to him and quite frankly he doesn't deserve it anyway.  Adam's attitude and approach is full of anger and nothing good will come of that.

Essentially what it boils down to is that if he thinks he can't do it then I guess he can't.  I know I can, there would no doubt be some design difficulties to overcome especially around the handle but those wouldn't be of great consequence, all you have to do is make sure your handle is SOLID.

In any case Dave, why don't you point out where I did this boasting?   You never know, maybe Alzheimer is finally kicking in 

What you fail to see, Marc, is you've insulted Dave in your own answer. Alzheimer's is a serious and debilitating degenerative disease. Not funny. Certainly nothing to joke about. Several members of my family had Alzheimer's and I find your remake in very bad taste. I can't speak for Dave, but I'd like an apology. Failure to do so will only magnify your arrogance.   

[Marc St Louis]

What you fail to see, Marc, is you've insulted Dave in your own answer. Alzheimer's is a serious and debilitating degenerative disease. Not funny. Certainly nothing to joke about. Several members of my family had Alzheimer's and I find your remake in very bad taste. I can't speak for Dave, but I'd like an apology. Failure to do so will only magnify your arrogance.

Wow when you miss the mark you miss it big time.  I wasn't saying that Dave has Alzheimers, I was talking about me.  Oh and guess what, some of my family had it also.  The problem with you is your too full of yourself.