Author Topic: The ELB and the mass theory  (Read 1926 times)

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Offline Badger

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The ELB and the mass theory
« on: March 25, 2014, 02:07:36 pm »
   One of my favorite applications for the mass theory is when making ELBS. I believe with the heavier war bows the mass comes out a bit too high and needs some adjustment but never the less it still reflects the relationship between design, wood density and tiller shape. An ELB is unique in several ways when compared to an american longbow. First of all we need to mainatin a 5/8 ratio of thickness to width. We need to have at least a slighlty round belly, the bows are usually but not always longer than the American counterpart and they are expected to at least slightly bend through the handle.

   If a bow is 72" long or 68" long we need to maintain at least a minimal amount of width in the bow to guarantee lateral stability and no twisting of the limbs. The challenge starts here when making bows for target shooters in the 50# and below range.  A 50#@28', 72" bow with a circular tiller should way about 15 oz when finished. If you were to take a hickory backed ipe and build it to ELB demesions and expect to hit mass weight you would only be 3/4" wide and very unstable in the outer limbs. If you were to build that bow to floor tiller using minimum stable demensions you might end up about 1.125 wide and around 26oz to 28 oz.

      The way we solve this problem using the mass principle is to simply raise the projected weight by changing the tiller shape and working areas of the bow. The other solution is to use lighter woods allowing for a more circular tiller shape. By adding a 16",  1/2 bending center section and stiffening the outer 8" of outer limb the mass projection goes up to about 23oz  which should be no problem bringing the floor tillered un refined 26 oz stave down to.

      I have found knowing how much mass forces me to adjust the design or materials to optimize a design based on materials used.

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: The ELB and the mass theory
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2014, 02:30:09 pm »
Can I ask you how you feel perry reflex, or reflex in general in a stave, can effect the end result mass outcome of the finished bow?
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline Badger

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Re: The ELB and the mass theory
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2014, 02:35:30 pm »
   I allow more mass for reflex about 1 additional ounce for every 2".  The bow is bending more to get braces so needs to be a little wider and thinner. I just finished an elb yesterday and ended up with 1 1/2" reflex. I was anticipating no more than 1' or less but it held better than I expected.

Offline Inuumarue

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Re: The ELB and the mass theory
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2014, 02:38:57 pm »
Badger,

How would the mass principle change when working with a tri-lam elb?  I've got a hickory backed massaranduba with a tapered jatoba core that I glued up over the weekend.  It is intended for a low 40# bow for my wife so i'm down in the stability concerns area.   Would the lighter core (not that much lighter in this case) allow you to make a wider more stable bow without a significant mass penalty?


Offline Badger

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Re: The ELB and the mass theory
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2014, 03:05:51 pm »
   The denser woods seem to be proportionately better in reduced lengths. For your wifes bow for instance she may be shorter and a 66" bow with a 26" draw might  be all she needs. As for width. I don't like to go below 1 1/8 on any long bow. You will find your bow will have a lot of mass to try and compensate for. The tri lam or backed bows I always figure 10% less mass.  So if your wifes bow comes out at 40#@26" and 66" long and a circular tiller you will be looking at a projected mass of under 10oz. Thats impossible! By allowing for a stiffer or semi bending center section of the bow that increases in bend as it nears the tips and possibly adding just a tough of relfex you will be able to raise the projected mass to 16 or 17 oz making it a lot more feasable to meet or at least come close to.

Offline bubby

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Re: The ELB and the mass theory
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2014, 04:34:14 pm »
I'm gonna have to check out your mass theory I just make bows and don't like to complicate things any more than I already do, but if your not moving foreward your sliding back
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline Badger

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Re: The ELB and the mass theory
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2014, 05:50:49 pm »
  Bubby, its not a scientific engineering program. The chinese and the turks used mass a couple thousand years ago. If we used the same wood and the same designs all the time it would be of little use, it was all by trial and error backyard science.