Author Topic: Laminations  (Read 9519 times)

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Offline bow101

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Laminations
« on: March 18, 2014, 07:26:59 pm »
What is the benefit of having 3 lams versus 2..? 
"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are."  Joseph Campbell

Offline Jesse

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2014, 07:31:57 pm »
one benefit is that you can use a lighter wood as a core. another is that it makes the whole stack more flexible when putting it in a form.  Also you need smaller amounts of good wood.
"If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere."
    --Frank A. Clark

Offline bow101

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2014, 07:39:44 pm »
one benefit is that you can use a lighter wood as a core. another is that it makes the whole stack more flexible when putting it in a form.  Also you need smaller amounts of good wood.
Good points Jesse........
Why would you want a lighter wood as a core. ..?   I think I read somewhere that using 3 lams makes for a better performing bow (cast) 
"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are."  Joseph Campbell

Offline Jesse

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 07:56:16 pm »
Compression and tension are focused on the outsides. The middle is less critical so the lighter the better.  It really doesn't matter that much though  :)
"If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere."
    --Frank A. Clark

Offline adb

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 08:18:21 pm »
Not true. It does matter. The mid lam is experiencing mostly compressive forces and a poor core lam will chrysal. There was a thread here about this not long ago. Do a search and check it out. I think it was toomanyknots who posted it.

I always use compression strong core woods like ipe, osage, cherry, bloodwood, yellowheart and purpleheart, and I've used all these woods in mostly tri-lam ELBs. I have made a couple of tri-lam flatbows as well.

I've heard plenty that a  tri-lam has improved performance, but I've never heard a reason why. I have my theories, but they're just opinions.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 08:21:45 pm by adb »

Offline DarkSoul

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2014, 08:31:22 pm »
According to the mass principle, the 'lighter core wood' is not the exact truth. The core wood IS doing something, so 'the lighter the better' is not the best approach. The core is at least experiencing a lot of shearing forces, so the wood must be able to cope with those. Since you'll be gluing wood to both sides of this core, it is also preferable to have good gluing qualities. A diffuse porous wood is therefore preferred, because it is uniform and resists shear better than most ring porous woods. In my opinion, a typical core wood is medium dense, uniform, diffuse porous and easy to glue. Walnut, cherry and especially maple are very suitable core woods. But the truth is, almost any wood will work as a core (maybe not balsa...). Myself, I prefer a third lam as core for its ability to allow me to use a third wood species. A nicely contrasting core is simply stunning. Also, this core is not at the surface of the bow, so you can actually make use of some of your laminates that did not qualify for backings or bellies. A hickory lam with a little too much grain run off, or an ipé lam with a small pin knot... these would normally not be suited for a backing and belly respectively, but are perfectly fine for a core. I've got a piece of ipé with some small drying cracks, which I don't trust as a belly lam. So I'll use it as a core lam instead.
The third core lam also allows me to use thinner belly lams. If you have a 3/8" ipé lam, for instance as a left over from milling belly slats, it is not thick enough to use as a belly alone when combined with bamboo/hickory. So I add a core of maybe 1/8" and I have enough thickness to make a great 50# bow. Using multiple lams also means that each lam will be thinner. The thinner the lams, the easier they are to bend. So the easier it is to press them into a form or shape. A severe reflex/deflex or recurve is easily obtained when using three lams, while it is difficult when using only two lams.
"Sonuit contento nervus ab arcu."
Ovid, Metamorphoses VI-286

Offline bow101

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2014, 08:44:43 pm »
The thinner the lams, the easier they are to bend. So the easier it is to press them into a form or shape. A severe reflex/deflex or recurve is easily obtained when using three lams, while it is difficult when using only two lams.

Thanks for all the points you guys made.  "easier it is to press them into a form or shape"  I'm aware of that and have learned what to do next time on a 2 lam bow to make it bend easier for the tips, rather than slicing the glued up lams I going to sand down one lam back about 7-8 inches then glue on a peice after and that will also stiffen up the last 4 inches of the tips.  Its tough to get a clean cut without a band saw...... :P
"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are."  Joseph Campbell

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2014, 09:01:36 pm »
and especially maple are very suitable core woods.

+1000, maple is definitely my favorite core wood!
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline Jesse

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2014, 09:22:07 pm »
The light core is the main reaso FOAM cores are used in many glass bows. Just sayin ;) By saying it doesn't matter that much I was referring to the fact that a light core does not make performance that much better :)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 09:33:18 pm by Jesse »
"If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere."
    --Frank A. Clark

Offline adb

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2014, 09:28:32 pm »
Core material in a FG bow is not even on the same planet as an all wood bow. They have nothing in common, other than they're between something.

Offline Jesse

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2014, 09:47:11 pm »
Core material in a FG bow is not even on the same planet as an all wood bow. They have nothing in common, other than they're between something.
this is not the best place to discuss this I'm sure :) lets just say that having made many of both natural and unnatural bows I disagree.  ;D the same physics do apply. no big deal. I didnt want to ruffle your feathers. Just giving my 2 cents ;)
"If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere."
    --Frank A. Clark

Offline adb

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2014, 09:58:50 pm »
and especially maple are very suitable core woods.

+1000, maple is definitely my favorite core wood!

My favourite backing wood!!  ;)

Offline adb

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2014, 10:04:33 pm »
Core material in a FG bow is not even on the same planet as an all wood bow. They have nothing in common, other than they're between something.
this is not the best place to discuss this I'm sure :) lets just say that having made many of both natural and unnatural bows I disagree.  ;D the same physics do apply. no big deal. I didnt want to ruffle your feathers. Just giving my 2 cents ;)

I think this is the perfect place to discuss these things. Please enlighten us. I'm all ears.

Offline Jesse

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2014, 10:17:39 pm »
Core material in a FG bow is not even on the same planet as an all wood bow. They have nothing in common, other than they're between something.
this is not the best place to discuss this I'm sure :) lets just say that having made many of both natural and unnatural bows I disagree.  ;D the same physics do apply. no big deal. I didnt want to ruffle your feathers. Just giving my 2 cents ;)

I think this is the perfect place to discuss these things. Please enlighten us. I'm all ears.
adb.feel free to pm me if you need clarification on something I posted.
"If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere."
    --Frank A. Clark

Offline Jesse

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Re: Laminations
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2014, 10:39:23 pm »
I guess what Im trying to say is that personally I have been able to make both natural and man made material bows on the same form and achieve similar results providing the materials can handle the design. Using a lighter core wood can increase performance but not always that noticeably.  Draw weight is determined by the distance between the back and belly of a given design regardless of which core wood is used. 
"If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere."
    --Frank A. Clark