Author Topic: Wolves in Yellowstone  (Read 13712 times)

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Offline PatM

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2014, 09:12:09 pm »
But why wouldn't they be able to kill the smaller Plains Bison? If a larger Wolf can kill a Wood Bison there is no reason to believe that the original   "Buffalo Wolves" were not killing the smaller Plains Bison.
 Where is the evidence that the original wolves were actually so small? Wolf sizes just don't work that way in the presence of large game.
 The Grizzly doesn't limit the size of Wolves anywhere else so why would it on the Plains?
 I do know that neither of us was there in the original scenario so we are just seeing a fragment of the original eco system and forming opinions based on that.

Offline Dharma

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2014, 10:02:33 pm »
The people who would have known left no written records because they had no written language.
An arrow knows only the life its maker breathes into it...

Offline kleinpm

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2014, 10:10:56 pm »
But why wouldn't they be able to kill the smaller Plains Bison? If a larger Wolf can kill a Wood Bison there is no reason to believe that the original   "Buffalo Wolves" were not killing the smaller Plains Bison.
 Where is the evidence that the original wolves were actually so small? Wolf sizes just don't work that way in the presence of large game.
 The Grizzly doesn't limit the size of Wolves anywhere else so why would it on the Plains?
 I do know that neither of us was there in the original scenario so we are just seeing a fragment of the original eco system and forming opinions based on that.

Pat,

I have to agree that the wolves are probably similar in size today as they were 150 years ago. The skulls they have from past years are within the normal variance for size of the wolves that are here today. Wolf Watcher is right though that the wolves we have here today don't kill many bison. There was a bison hobbling around with a broken leg and a prolapsed uterus for about three months before the wolves finally put her out of her misery. Wolves eat what is easiest to kill and bison usually aren't it.

Patrick

Offline PatM

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2014, 10:23:29 pm »
The people who would have known left no written records because they had no written language.
People with a written language went through those areas  for hundreds of years while the Wolves and Bison were in abundance.

Offline Mohawk13

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2014, 10:33:21 pm »
Yeup...And we kind enough to put them in paintings of the era...Oddly enough....patrolling around herds of Bison looking for the old, weak, and feeble....imagine that. Many western explorers also mentioned the size and characteristics of the wolves they encountered and observed...Anyone ever read the Journals of Lewis and Clark???Not the small Library version, but the multi-volume version...well described..
He That Raises the sword against us, Shall be cleaved upon seven fold-Talmud.

Offline PatM

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2014, 10:35:58 pm »
But why wouldn't they be able to kill the smaller Plains Bison? If a larger Wolf can kill a Wood Bison there is no reason to believe that the original   "Buffalo Wolves" were not killing the smaller Plains Bison.
 Where is the evidence that the original wolves were actually so small? Wolf sizes just don't work that way in the presence of large game.
 The Grizzly doesn't limit the size of Wolves anywhere else so why would it on the Plains?
 I do know that neither of us was there in the original scenario so we are just seeing a fragment of the original eco system and forming opinions based on that.

Pat,

I have to agree that the wolves are probably similar in size today as they were 150 years ago. The skulls they have from past years are within the normal variance for size of the wolves that are here today. Wolf Watcher is right though that the wolves we have here today don't kill many bison. There was a bison hobbling around with a broken leg and a prolapsed uterus for about three months before the wolves finally put her out of her misery. Wolves eat what is easiest to kill and bison usually aren't it.

Patrick
  The wolves introduced were  also  from Montana, not just Alberta.
 Few of them actually had any experience with even seeing Bison never mind hunting them.  The first attacks happened almost immediately after release, not eight years later.
 Definitely Bison are not the first choice but there is little question that wolves are still perfectly capable of taking down Bison.
 You can find much video evidence and studies have been published documenting the kills.
 
 
 

Offline PatM

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2014, 10:43:59 pm »
Yeup...And we kind enough to put them in paintings of the era...Oddly enough....patrolling around herds of Bison looking for the old, weak, and feeble....imagine that. Many western explorers also mentioned the size and characteristics of the wolves they encountered and observed...Anyone ever read the Journals of Lewis and Clark???Not the small Library version, but the multi-volume version...well described..
The thought that predators only target the old and diseased apparently has a fair amount of dispute when lengthy studies are done.
 That overlooks the unlucky such as perfectly healthy cows that have just given birth and leave themselves and the new calf at risk.
 You can also often see a healthy animal just make one wrong turn and isolate themselves from a herd and immediately become vulnerable.
 Predators never pause for a health and age check in those situations. The prey animal has to not just be healthy but borderline freakishly strong to offset bad luck.
 In the best of situations a wild animal still needs an incredibly large dose of luck to live to anything close to  old age.

Offline Wolf Watcher

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2014, 11:07:43 pm »
PatM:  You win with all your first hand knowledge I am sure you know much more about how the wolves have affected the elk and bison populations.  I would like to ask how many wolves, elk, and bison live where you live?  By the way there were no wolves planted in 1995 that came from Montana.  I have known one of the men that was involved in trapping the wolves in Canada that were transported to the Park and he told me all about catching and releasing them!  He just retired as the wolf manager in the Cody office of the Game and Fish. 
Get Close---Shoot Straight

Offline PatM

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2014, 11:22:45 pm »
I am solely discussing the ability of wolves to hunt and the difference the various subspecies have which allow them to hunt big game species.
 I am not at all discussing their impact on the Bison and Elk population within a restricted area. Merely discussing whether it is "normal" behavior.
 

Offline Dharma

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2014, 10:59:53 am »
It's hard to quantify what is "normal behaviour" for a reintroduced species or an introduced species. Pigeons were once canyon cliff dwellers and nesters from North Africa. Now they've become so accustomed to living in man's environment, their behaviour changed and they learned man is a better host than a cliff in North Africa. In turn, Peregrine Falcons and even Redtail Hawks have discovered they can adapt to cities to hunt these pigeons and taken advantage of man as a de facto host, not to mention the nesting opportunities on the ledges of skyscrapers. English Sparrows are the descendants of weaverbirds from Africa. They learned man is a much better host because food availability is better and nesting sites are easier in the eaves of buildings. Once an animal has man as a host, their behaviour changes, and what was once "normal" for them is no longer normal. And while wild animals can be introduced, man has unintentionally made himself the host of the animal and, thus, altered its normal behaviour. If man protects the wild animal, even more so has he become the host.

The English Sparrow was not native to North America; it was brought here by Europeans because they missed them. Because of its adaptable nature, the English Sparrow became highly successful, just as it did in Europe. It can outcompete the native sparrows here as well as other songbirds of its size. It can defeat Mountain Bluebirds in the fringe areas of towns and cities in certain regions for nesting sites. It can monopolize and aggressively defend birdfeeders and other food sources and thus propagate its species faster than other birds. Man became the host of this bird by introducing it to an area that had not seen this type of bird. Honestly, man is the host of introduced wolves in the same manner. Man captures them from one area, transports them to another area, and assumes this will be a natural thing. But this wasn't so with English Sparrows, nor is it so with wolves. It's like thinking that, ok, we wiped out the Passenger Pigeon, so the common pigeon in cities will restore that. And the effects of introduced species are not usually what was intended. As with the English Sparrow. And if tomorrow it was decided to get rid of English Sparrows, it couldn't be done. That bird has already adapted and is too intelligent to eradicate. It adapts too fast. Wolves, being transported and introduced, are unintentionally being taught rapid progress evolution and adaptation in the same way.
An arrow knows only the life its maker breathes into it...

Offline kleinpm

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2014, 11:00:29 am »
I think when there were 65 million bison, following a herd and waiting for the small percentage that breaks a leg or gets sick to lag behind was the easiest way to get a meal. Bison generally don't run from a fight with wolves like elk do, so I think now the elk are just easier prey.

Patrick

Offline Pat B

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2014, 11:14:57 am »
I saw a show on PBS, NOVA about Alaska's Coastal wolves. These coastal wolves are just over half the size of the inland timber wolves. The guy studying them found out that their main food source was grizzly bears. As he took scat samples to figure this out he found grizzly claws and teeth in their scat. They showed a grizzly eating on carrion on the beach when all of a sudden it startled and ran off just as a pack of these wolves moved in. 
 These wolves also caught and ate salmon when the salmon would run in the fall.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline PatM

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2014, 01:04:45 pm »
The trouble with comparing  Old World pigeons and sparrows to wolves is that the wolves are still much more a natural presence in the North American environment.
 There was no barrier to them naturally migrating to the Yellowstone region. The more northern species was already on its way  there.  New arrivals of Wolves coming over the Bering Straight have been displacing or absorbing more early arrivals for eons.
 It wouldn't have been entirely unrealistic for them to have just got there on their own in time.
 

Offline kleinpm

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2014, 01:45:11 pm »
I wonder how much size variance depends on food? So the coastal wolves may or may not have as much food as the timber wolves, which makes them smaller. Like South Koreans compared to North Koreans.  :o

Wolves killed toward the end of the 19th century and early 20th century would have had a hard time finding lots of elk and bison to eat.

Patrick

Offline Pat B

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Re: Wolves in Yellowstone
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2014, 02:24:26 pm »
Patrick, I think it was more a matter of climate for the coastal wolves. That area has a more moderate climate than central Alaska.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC