How much reflex is too much?

[PatM]

 Marc, Are you talking about your non-deflex bows in this case?  I think we also have to differentiate between absolute max performance for a few shots versus longevity and high performance over an extended lifetime.
 Did Kviljio ever get back to you about the performance of the flight bow you made him?  I was curious if that design would outperform a non-deflex handle bow.

[Buckeye Guy]

Just got in
thanks for firing this up Pat!
I see you did separate threads for how much and were at
they seem to me to go hand in hand
I did not remember much discussion on here latly and it looked like a good time to do it
I can't keep up with you folks , post come in faster than Ican read
I feel 3" of reflex is about all we need and agree that near the tips is best place for it
If we use Gary's formula or Papys flip the tips does not make a huge difference in the end! Y
There does seem to be some merit in what Pearly was saying about corresponding reflex with limb taper but either one of these methods gets you in the ballgame!
Good recurves get you close also but can be more work than the others ways.
Also think about Boardhawks recurved levers , I love them and hope to one day to do some myself!
with proper tillering methods we should not be loosing much reflex at all so no reason to put in more just to lose it
Have fun
Guy

[Arrowind]

Another very interesting topic I can't contribute much to.        ...reading with interest.   the little experience I have is that any reflex from 1-3" seems to make a noticeable difference.   I have one that I put 6" of relfex into and it ended up with about 3" after tillering and shooting in.  It performs very well.  I will say that it does have a hickory backing.   And I think I made some mistakes tillering.  I think it took more set than it needed to.  but I don't know.  It shoots good so I'm happy with it.

[Pappy]

For me,as Pearlie said learned a long time ago that adding 6 and winding up with 2 don't seem any better ,maybe worse than adding 3 and winding up with 1.And adding 3 or 4 instead of 6 is much easier to handle/tiller and hit weight. I am not really into speed but do want my bows smooth so adding 3 or 4 inches to start and flipping the last few inches seem to work best for me.  I have seen a lot of different bows built and to be honest the recurves of the same weight and draw
aren't much faster than the straight limbed bows with a little reflex,I'm talking FPS,smoother,yes usually but faster not so much,at least for me not enough to make me want to go to all the trouble and risk to build many.  Love reading all the different takes on it, interesting stuff. I think most start out building a bow out of what ever they have to start,then move on to adding a little reflex,then a lot and then settle into what suits them the best and that is what this selfbow stuff is all about,what ever makes YOU happy, no real right or wrong, just different. 
Pappy

[blackhawk]

Looks like you guys got this one about whipped....most all the experienced guys concur as do I

[Josh B]

Yep, Pat pretty much summed it up for me in his opening post.    Josh

[Slackbunny]

This was a good read. Learned a lot, and I think I may be inspired to try my hand a deflex/reflex design.

[Marc St Louis]

Marc, Are you talking about your non-deflex bows in this case?  I think we also have to differentiate between absolute max performance for a few shots versus longevity and high performance over an extended lifetime.
 Did Kviljio ever get back to you about the performance of the flight bow you made him?  I was curious if that design would outperform a non-deflex handle bow.

Talking about both Pat.

I had forgotten about that bow I made Kviljio.  I don't think he did get back to me about it.

[IdahoMatt]

This was a good read. Learned a lot, and I think I may be inspired to try my hand a deflex/reflex design.

Well put. +1

[PatM]

Marc, Are you talking about your non-deflex bows in this case?  I think we also have to differentiate between absolute max performance for a few shots versus longevity and high performance over an extended lifetime.
 Did Kviljio ever get back to you about the performance of the flight bow you made him?  I was curious if that design would outperform a non-deflex handle bow.

Talking about both Pat.

I had forgotten about that bow I made Kviljio.  I don't think he did get back to me about it.

   Did you find that the reflexed bows had a slight edge over the deflexed handled type? Even if they dropped off a bit if overstrained.

[Marc St Louis]

If you're talking performance then no.  I can't say I've ever made a deflex handle recurve selfbow to equal the performance I was getting with the straight handle bows I was making many years ago but then I didn't try very hard either.

[toomanyknots]

I think the answer to this is:

- when it causes the back or belly to fail, whether prematurely, or later down the line,
- when it deters from the design, by causing stability problems like twist, or similar problems,
- or when it just goes against the bowyers personal preference.

[Badger]

  Mark, I am surprised to hear that but happy to hear that as well. I always thought your deflexed handle bows were the fastest, I know they are fast.

   My fastest design with either hickory or boo backed and even on self bows is the simple pull down the deflex to where mid limb is the same levels as the bottom of the handle then start reflexing out to about 4 1/2" If I can maintain over 3" I know I will have a fast bow. My chrono is not working right now but I have one I really want to test. A hickory backed cherry, I started with about 3 1/2" reflex and finished with 4 1/2". I was going for 50# but dropped it to 35# using the no set tiller method.

[PatM]

I guess it comes down to maximally straining the potential of your material. Personally I much prefer the straight handle with reflex over the deflex handle.

[Badger]

  Here is something that has always puzzled me about reflex. Not sure if I can even explain it right. So if we have any engineers handy that can expalin it better please jump in and help.

    The main reason I give a bow reflex is to have higher draw at brace height. The geometry on my bow determines how fast my bow will build pounds as I draw it. If I am getting 10# draw at say 9" (6"brace height)  this means I have to gain a little over 2# per inch to come in at 50#. The style bow I builds faster than that so i have to lower the brace height tension until I can hit my 50#@28".  The more radical designs with very low string angles and contact recurves can have a higher force draw curve and build weight slower so they can have higher brace height tension. Intuitively a lot of people think a bow gets harder as we draw it back because the wood is building up tension which isn't true, it gets harder because the angle we are pulling at changes as we draw it.

     I think my point is that the amount of reflex we can benefit from has a lot to do with the style bow we are building.