copper/ stone

[iowabow]

Been reading a lot on copper and stone tools. The question for me that is interesting is....so there is copper....why are you (native people from the past) making stone celts.  This is fun to think about and why did the design of the axe change. Did copper influence stone tool design? How many hours would it take to make a copper celt V.S stone. Which will last longer? How much of an advantage is a copper celt during that time period? What about maintaining an edge which one requires more of your time? Can a copper celt be easily replaced if lost or broken? Why use stone tools to mine copper is a fun one to think about.

[Bryce]

Is it possible that only the weathy(or in ownership of a worthy trade item) could afford copper?

[Patches]

I was thinking along the same lines as Bryce...copper was basically for the wealthy or the individuals that were higher status.  Oetzi (the Iceman from Austria/Italy border) carried a copper ax with him and it is thought to be a status symbol.  I heard someone say that it took them over 200 hours to drill a hole through a stone celt they were making, and then you have the finishing to do on top of that.  With copper, I think it would depend alot on your location (if you can get the raw materials) and knowledge to extract the material, then use it.   Oetzi's copper ax set the time lline for copper use back I believe at least 1000 years ( i will have to check and make sure).   

I have never read anyting about sharpening the copper or anything about the care of it.

To me this is something really cool to think about and discuss!   

[lostarrow]

 Copper is quite scarce compared to stone. Copper is a soft metal and doesn't hold an edge well. It takes a lot more  "technology" to produce items from copper.  A stone celt is basically a smooth riverstone of the right shape with the end knapped to form a sharp edge. Basically a disposable tool.  If you are talking about a stone axe , now that's a different story.
  This will likely get moved to the knapping section or primitive skills. Maybe around the campfire. I'm sure Patrick Blank will be able to shed some light on this topic. Hopefully he will chime in..
   There is a video on Youtube where they did some experimental archeology to reproduce  Otzi's axe. Very interresting conclusions.

[Don Case]

TBB4 has a whole chapter on copper adzes

[JackCrafty]

A copper celt will not break, crack, or chip and cannot be damaged by normal fires.  IMO, it was used when there was lot of chopping to do, or when they needed a reliable weapon for fighting. 

[iowabow]

What are the reasons for chopping trees? Kind of a waste of time for farming I think. So maybe to acquire  fresh wood but why?  Bug free if dried right?

[JackCrafty]

Lodge poles and wigwam frames were made from freshly cut trees and saplings.  Canoe frames also.  And dugouts required lots of chopping...

[lostarrow]

  Around here ,the" woodland" Indians made palisades around their towns with sharpened logs  . They would also need fire wood and needed to clear land for their crops. Most of their everyday items were made from wood, from handles for tools to pack frames  , snowshoes ,  raised  sleeping platforms  , long houses  ........ on and on.

[iowabow]

Alright this is real great input guys. If we were them what would you guy guess was used to cut what? lets first work with just chert and "stone" cutting tools. For example in your estimation "I think this size and type of wood was cut with _____"

My thought here is to source you guys for ideas that I might not other wise come up with. See I cut hundreds of trees every year at this time. I was thinking of making and testing out some of your ideas with my next years cutting. I could make these tools and cut a bunch of wood and just see what the effect of this kinda of tool is over a number of trees. I marked yesterday over a hundred that I need to cut this year and next year will be the same. It could be fun for our group or just me to test out how a tool works over time. I have seen a lot of videos showing a guy making a tool and chopping a tree but never a group of trees. The college has microscopes that can photograph an edge on a tool then we could see what happens over time.

We are going to have to think about what we really want to know chert VS stone or Stone VS copper and the list goes on. Most of my trees are 10" and under.

[JackCrafty]

4" long stone blades or bifaces to cut arrow shoots.  6" diameter spalls with one sharp edge to cut bow staves or branches less than 3" in diameter.  Ground stone celts to cut trees 3" to 5" in diameter.

I steal the rest from the beavers. 


---http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Beaver-cut-Trees.jpg

[Bryce]

That's a tasty looking beaver. Would make a nice quiver as well.

[JW_Halverson]

Ahhhh, God's little chainsaws!

[Patches]

Flintknappers .com has quite a bit of information on stone axes and it reads like he has used the stone axes a lot. It says he cut over 300 trees with one and another he used on over 3500 limbs and trees. I do not know anything about the guy that posted the information, but might be some good background reading.  Look under the heading 'Axe me no questions'...

Nothing on there tho about copper axes.


Neal

[iowabow]

Flintknappers .com has quite a bit of information on stone axes and it reads like he has used the stone axes a lot. It says he cut over 300 trees with one and another he used on over 3500 limbs and trees. I do not know anything about the guy that posted the information, but might be some good background reading.  Look under the heading 'Axe me no questions'...

Nothing on there tho about copper axes.


Neal

wow thank you for the info sounds good.