Came across a claim about mary rose nocks being antler? Is this bee ess or not?

[PatM]

Here is an example of an antler nock. Not absolutely certain of the date for this bow but  I'm pretty sure it's not a modern replica.
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/26406/swiss-quot-chiemgauer-quot-bow

[JW_Halverson]

Dang! That is a nice fit on that nock, thanks for posting the link, Pat.  Graceful transition from wood to antler!

[PatM]

I'm trying to locate the original source for that pic. I know Pierre Lansac posted the link to the museum that houses these bows. Can't remember if the museum is in France or Switzerland.
 The work is exceptional for sure and shows that antler was used at least some of the time.
 It would be interesting to know how antler would have coped with the submersion. It seems like bone type material would have been better preserved but naturally the nocks of either material would have certainly loosened.

[JW_Halverson]

I'm trying to locate the original source for that pic. I know Pierre Lansac posted the link to the museum that houses these bows. Can't remember if the museum is in France or Switzerland.
 The work is exceptional for sure and shows that antler was used at least some of the time.
 It would be interesting to know how antler would have coped with the submersion. It seems like bone type material would have been better preserved but naturally the nocks of either material would have certainly loosened.

Well, had they been using hide glue for the join, the nock certainly would have been loose!

[PatM]

Yes, but you might think that antler might just drop off and be found in the bottom of the bow containers if it was in fact used and stands submersion.
 I think people do however assume that only hide glue was used in the old days.
 I remember there being an article of a "primitive epoxy" being found on some ancient Roman armor or helmet that was used to attach metal scales or similar.

[toomanyknots]

I usually just lurk here, but know people who raised the Mary Rose and working next to it in Portsmouth dockyard I just have to reply.
from the trusts database;



Unspecified/Identified horn side nock. only one found as it was not attached to a bow but stored wrapped thus surviving where all the others rotted away..



No reason why the horn wasn't imported either, allegedly the staves came from Italian sources because the growing conditions were better

Thank you Matt!

[WillS]

That pic is straight from the Mary Rose trust.  It's the one featured in Weapons of Warre.

For what it's worth, a lot of the top warbow makers today are experimenting with removable nocks.  Both Steve Stratton and Dave Pim have made bows where the nocks aren't glued on at all.  With a side nock like the one found, the cut actually goes into the wood of the tip as well.  This means that the nock can be taken off, then placed back on when used.  The string is attached via two bowyers knots and the groove made in the bow tip keeps it all in place unlike a normal horn nock which needs to be glued there.

In fact Steve is of the opinion that the strings were kept tied to both nocks at all times.  The bottom horn nock would be slipped over the bottom limb tip, and the bow bent to allow the top horn nock to be placed over the top limb tip. 

[WillS]

 This is a photo I took myself of the one surviving horn nock - clearly it's not black like buffalo horn!

You can see the single side nock, and if you look at the bow tip next to it on the left, the groove left in the wood is pretty obvious. 

Roy King made a replica of this exact nock to identical dimensions, and tried it on numerous bows.  It fitted a lot of them almost perfectly, with the slot cut in the horn matching exactly to the groove left in the tips of the bows, so it's fairly safe to assume that the horn nocks were made to a standardised shape and pattern with routine measurements, and were so similar that they could have been swapped from bow to bow. 

[Marc St Louis]

Can you imagine trying to remove the nock from heavy draw weight warbow if a bowyers knot was used top and bottom on the string and the string was supposed to fit into the groove in the wood?  You would have to be Hercules to accomplish such a feat

[WillS]

It seems to work just fine on Dave's 110# bow.  He posted a pic of it in the warbow section a while back.  Nocks not glued on at all, both using side nocks and bowyers knots.  With a stringer I can't see it being a problem.

[toomanyknots]

I hate removing bowyers knots from any bow for that matter, I always use at least one loop. Very cool picture Will! You think it could of been black though about 500 years ago when it was fresh? Really, after being underwater so long, it's a wonder enough that it even exists. It's cool how you can tell it was rasped (or worked, or what ever) at the skirt of the nock, to do away with any step that would hinder stringing the bow. As the nock would most likely not be naturally shaped this way. Somewhat pointing to the use of loops that would be slid up the bow limb like today? 

[WillS]

I agree (the separate nocks theory isn't one I share by the way) that it looks like the transition is deliberately as smooth as possible.  And yeah, there's really no telling what colour it was, but it certainly looks now like normal cow horn, and if Alex Hildred and Roy King say it's cow horn I'm inclined to believe them!

[toomanyknots]

I agree (the separate nocks theory isn't one I share by the way) that it looks like the transition is deliberately as smooth as possible.  And yeah, there's really no telling what colour it was, but it certainly looks now like normal cow horn, and if Alex Hildred and Roy King say it's cow horn I'm inclined to believe them!

Well I'm satisfied anyway, I just wanted to check with everybody before I write this ebay seller off as full of it. It rubs me wrong, as I don't know anywhere else to buy yew in the states at the moment, and his staves tempt me on a daily basis, but then again I wonder what he isn't showing in the pictures if he has a tendency to be full of it. He has 6 staves for 360.00, which seem like a good deal for 60 a stave, but 3 he called practice staves.

P.S. I fixed all my errors and typos in the above message, I have no idea how you read that thing, haha.

[WillS]

It's honestly Russian roulette with him.  You might end up with a decent stave, but it's a fair chunk of money for the risk.  I hear that Carson from Echo Archery (who is  member on here) supplies really good yew so maybe he's the guy to ask?

[Marc St Louis]

It seems to work just fine on Dave's 110# bow.  He posted a pic of it in the warbow section a while back.  Nocks not glued on at all, both using side nocks and bowyers knots.  With a stringer I can't see it being a problem.

Did they use stringers in the days of warbows?