Author Topic: New Pyramid  (Read 7291 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Wooden Spring

  • Member
  • Posts: 437
New Pyramid
« on: December 03, 2013, 08:50:03 am »
I just put the finishing touches on a bow that I'm building for a 14 year old's Christmas present. It's a 35# Red Oak Pyramid bow backed with 7oz canvas.
66"NTN
2" @ fades
1/2" @ tips
1/2" consistent thickness along limb.

On another bow, I tapered the limb thickness from 1/2" at the fades to 3/8" at the nocks, and the tiller was MUCH better than this one, so from now on that's what I'm going to do. The tips on this bow are really stiff, but it's a really quick bow for 35#... It took about 2" of set, but it shoots, so who cares, right?   ;)


The pictures show the backing (not my best work, but it's functional), full draw picture, and my poor shooting skills at 25 yards on a 9" bullseye.
"Everything that moves shall be food for you..." Genesis 9:3

Offline Arrowind

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,428
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 09:07:07 am »
Looks pretty good to me dude!  Nice work.  That young man is going to love it! 

You like pretty serious in those shots....glad we're not enemies.   :laugh:

...we're not right?
Talking trees. What do trees have to talk about, hmm... except the consistency of squirrel droppings?

Offline Wooden Spring

  • Member
  • Posts: 437
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2013, 09:20:46 am »
Looks pretty good to me dude!  Nice work.  That young man is going to love it! 

You like pretty serious in those shots....glad we're not enemies.   :laugh:

...we're not right?

Oh, good grief...  Well, it was cold and I was pacing to try to keep warm, and as my wife was taking the pictures, she said "hold still!" And I guess a grumpy face ermerged. That's why I look so serious I guess. Nah, the only enemy I have is Annie May, my Sea anemone enemy...
"Everything that moves shall be food for you..." Genesis 9:3

Offline tattoo dave

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,545
  • Rockford, MI
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2013, 09:24:26 am »
Good looking bow! He'll be happy, and don't worry, lots of us shoot like that at 25 yards. ;)

Tattoo Dave
Rockford, MI

Offline PEARL DRUMS

  • Member
  • Posts: 14,079
  • }}}--CK-->
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2013, 09:25:58 am »
Id need a bigger butt at 25 yards, that baby wont catch all my arra's!

Nice bow!
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline adb

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,339
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2013, 10:35:19 am »
You've done really well with that. With those stats and that design and your excellent tiller, I'm surprised it took 2" of set. If I was gonna be nit-picky, I'd say your mid to outer limbs are just a bit stiff. With a pyramid design like you have, ideal tiller should be a bit more round.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 10:52:23 am by adb »

Offline IdahoMatt

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,093
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 10:46:23 am »
Your tiller looks great.  Who ever receives that puppy is going to be a happy kid.  Nice work

Offline Wooden Spring

  • Member
  • Posts: 437
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2013, 11:02:12 am »
You've done really well with that. With those stats and that design and your excellent tiller, I'm surprised it took 2" of set. If I was gonna be nit-picky, I'd say your mid to outer limbs are just a bit stiff. With a pyramid design like you have, ideal tiller should be a bit more round.

The problem is that I haven't had a red oak bow yet take anything less than 2" of set...

I wish there was somewhere a detailed description of how one tillers a bow. I've got a BUNCH of books, and I love to read, but they never go into tremendous detail about tillering... Or maybe I'm just reading the wrong ones?

Yeah, the bow is stiff... The reason is that I've kept the thickness consistent throughout the length of the limb. I know that's what you're SUPPOSED to do, but in experimenting with about 8 bows of equal dimensions, if I taper the thickness by 1/8", from 1/2" at the fades to 3/8" at the tips, the tiller is almost perfectly circular.

Can someone explain to me how violating convention makes for a perfect tiller???   
"Everything that moves shall be food for you..." Genesis 9:3

Offline Pappy

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 32,137
  • if you have to ask you wouldn't understand ,Tenn.
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2013, 11:12:13 am »
Good looking bow,tiller looks fine to me. Shooting ant bad either. :)
  Pappy
Clarksville,Tennessee
TwinOaks Bowhunters
Life is Good

Offline adb

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,339
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2013, 11:45:36 am »
I let the tiller determine the thickness. Yes, for pyramid bows the thickness should be pretty much even from fade to tip, but in the end, I don't measure it. I let the final tiller shape (I want) determine the thickness.

There are no rock solid tillering conventions. There are some ideal designs. Wood is a natural material with inherent flaws and characteristics. Tillering is not complicated. Believe what your eyes are telling you, have a set goal in mind BEFORE you start a build, and proceed with patience and diligence to arrive at your goal.

If I start out with a pyramid design, I'll floor tiller until I can arrive at a low brace, and then throughout the tillering process, I think round. Make the tiller round. I'll get the fades moving first, and then bring the tips around last so I don't end up whip tillered.

Reading good books is valuable, but it's like learning karate from a book. You can't... not well, anyway. Get your hands dirty (and you are) and experiment. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

Don't get me wrong, your bow is good, but with those stats and a good piece of wood, you should be able to do better with the set. Half that set would be ideal. I don't know about oak cuz I've never used it. Look at where your finished bows are taking set, and let it be a guide as to where the limb is over stressed. If your set is even throughout the limb's length... you're doing good. If it's all in one spot... you're not.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 11:57:33 am by adb »

Offline bubby

  • Member
  • Posts: 11,054
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2013, 02:43:12 pm »
like adb said, the even thickness taper is the starting line, but it probably wont be that at the finish, the wood will determine everything in the end, nice looking bow he should be thrilled with it, bub
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline wood_bandit 99

  • Member
  • Posts: 197
  • Shoot straight my friends!!   55#@26"
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2013, 05:25:42 pm »
Read traditional bowyer's bibles and find some experienced bowyer next to you and watch them tiller or look at boarior bows on YouTube. He has good build alongs that help a ton. That is how I learned reading and YouTube  :o ;D
"Judge a man by his questions, not his answers" ~Anonymous

   "The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." ~Chinese Proverb

Offline steve b.

  • Member
  • Posts: 999
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2013, 06:15:06 pm »
One thing about tillering different profiles still eludes me.  Maybe someone could help me here.  Its the way I understand wide vs. narrow limbs and how they handle different stress. 

For example, on a lever bow, the levers are narrow and deep, because you don't want them to bend, much.  And stiff handles, are narrow and deep, because you don't want them to bend.  Tips are narrow and deep.

Wide wood is less likely to break than narrow wood that is thicker.  So we make white wood bows 'wide' so they can bend and still handle the stress.  Wide/thin wood bends and doesn't break.

So I get confused when I read in vol.4 how pyramids should be circular and parallel limbs eliptical.  Its seems to me to be the other way around since parallel limbs are 'wide' in the outer and therefore can safely bend, making a more circular curve. 

Pyramids are becoming levers in the outer limbs and should therefore bend less in the outer, more eliptical, because you don't want narrow wood bending as much.?

Can anyone help?

Offline adb

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,339
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2013, 08:57:45 pm »
Because most of the bending on a pyramid bow is a result of the profile taper, with the thickness remaining relatively constant, the ideal bend is even (or circular). On a bow with parallel profiled limbs there is no distal taper, so the limb will bend less towards the tips creating a more elliptical tiller. A parallel limbed bow must have thickness taper to bend.

One of my favourite statements to new bow makers... "Even tapers (thickness or profile) make even bends."
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 09:01:30 pm by adb »

Offline steve b.

  • Member
  • Posts: 999
Re: New Pyramid
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2013, 09:43:46 pm »
So why ever have parallel limbs?