Did English archers shoot over the knuckle or over the thumb?

[Goose Fletch]

Hi

I had a question which i couldnt shrug off for a little while as possibility of being right seemed like a really far fetch...did the ancients shoot over the thumb of the bow hand or the knuckle of their index finger?

ive coached kids in archery, little robin hoods if you will  and because of their small size, i had to provide them with little and basic bows that didnt have any obvious position for an arrow to rest. more often than not, their first instinct is to take the bow in one hand, the arrow in the other and "bring them together" as opposed to up and over to the opposite side (index finger side) so the arrow lands on the thumb side.

i was doing a history major until i switched to something else, so like many others, i know how misleading artwork may be in a historical context. it does beg the question though....take a look at this:

http://www.agincourtwarbows.com/G383729_282752168428324_100000806306327_705176_280100545_n.jpg

ive done some tests, and tried shooting my longbow off the thumb....its not easy or pretty, but its not that hard. do you think some archers may have shot over the thumb? is there contrary or supporting evidence? i havent read all of aschams book, so maybe i'll go do that first. bear in mind, in japanese forms, a much longer bow is shot over the thumb, and asian/middle eastern styles include a style that shoot over the thumb too.

honk honk

goose

[WillS]

We'll never know, will we? None of us were there

Firstly - a huge amount of illustrations show the arrow on the "wrong" side of the bow from the 100 Years War period, so that's either artistic license, ill-informed scribes/artists or an accurate representation of a style we've either forgotten about or didn't realise was in use.  If you believe the "every man was to shoot a bow" rule, it's unlikely that the artists were completely foreign to the basics of archery, so would be odd for them to get it wrong so often.  Still, could easily be a simple mistake copied by other artists later on.

Secondly - shooting on the right side of the bow over the thumb affects the tension and release of the string.  The reason it works for the Japanese archers is because they use a thumb-ring to release, which doesn't cause the string to pull inwards and disrupt the flight of the arrow.   

If you try and shoot with a Mediterranean / 3 finger under release AND over the thumb, the fingers will drag the string backwards and twist the string to the right, clockwise.  This will roll the arrow away from the side of the bow, either making the flight unpredictable or just causing the arrow to fall off the thumb.  With the arrow on the left side of the bow, resting over the knuckle, the clockwise twist of the string pulls the arrow inwards, against the bow.  The bow keeps it in place, and the release is consistent and predictable.

[Del the cat]

My experience with a left handed person on a have-a-go day shows it just doesn't work!
I got confused by the whole thing and put the arrow on the usual side of the bow... at loose it leaped off sideways 
It was a rare occasion that I knew the arrows were actually matched to the bow too, as I was letting them use one of my Hazel primitives and my arrows (well it was a pretty young woman... I'm sure you understand!  )
Del

[toomanyknots]

We'll never know, will we? None of us were there

Firstly - a huge amount of illustrations show the arrow on the "wrong" side of the bow from the 100 Years War period, so that's either artistic license, ill-informed scribes/artists or an accurate representation of a style we've either forgotten about or didn't realise was in use.  If you believe the "every man was to shoot a bow" rule, it's unlikely that the artists were completely foreign to the basics of archery, so would be odd for them to get it wrong so often.  Still, could easily be a simple mistake copied by other artists later on.

Secondly - shooting on the right side of the bow over the thumb affects the tension and release of the string.  The reason it works for the Japanese archers is because they use a thumb-ring to release, which doesn't cause the string to pull inards and disrupt the flight of the arrow.   

If you try and shoot with a Mediterranean / 3 finger under release AND over the thumb, the fingers will drag the string backwards and twist the string to the right, clockwise.  This will roll the arrow away from the side of the bow, either making the flight unpredictable or just causing the arrow to fall off the thumb.  With the arrow on the left side of the bow, resting over the knuckle, the clockwise twist of the string pulls the arrow inwards, against the bow.  The bow keeps it in place, and the release is consistent and predictable.

I've been shooting off the thumb for a while now. I started doing that when I was a little kid with the bows and arrows I would make back then, I guess because I didn't have anybody to teach me otherwise. I would make little sapling bows and shoot unfletched arrows at leaves in the trees and what not. Now at age 27, it is still so ingrained in me that I just can't shake it, I try to shoot over the knuckle at least once a week or so. (I can do it with a shelf ok) But without a shelf it just seems awkward, it's mostly about the way I draw the bow with the arrow on the other side that seems weird to me, not the fact that the arrow is on the other side of the bow. I guess I am slowly learning both ways, but my point is shooting off the thumb is absolutely no problem for me, the only thing I would think is that if your fletches aren't perfect they can hurt your thumb sometimes. And I agree that the japanese yumi archers do just fine as well, I would think the japanese would be pretty methodological in their martial arts, and if there was a huge disadvantage to shooting off the thumb, I think it would be unlikely they would of keep doing it for so long. And yes, I know I look ridiculous when I shoot,  .

[WillS]

Oh wow, that's cool.  Never heard of anybody shooting trad bows off the thumb before!  You're a freak.  Get out.


Do you lean the bow over a fair bit to counter the clockwise pull of the release, or just shoot straight?  I can't work out how it would work, but then if you've been doing it forever I can imagine it's no real issue for you!  I guess it's like getting somebody who shoots 3 fingers under to use the Med loose, or somebody who shoots Gap/Point of Aim to shoot instinctive.

[toomanyknots]

  You're a freak.  Get out.

Oh I know it,  .

Do you lean the bow over a fair bit to counter the clockwise pull of the release, or just shoot straight? 

I cant the bow to the side, but not so the arrow rests on my thumb, actually the other way. I might turn my thumb up a bit to hold the arrow though like a shelf, I would have to check. I don't think I do much differently when the arrow is on one side or the other, but it is kinda second nature so I might.

[Goose Fletch]

We'll never know, will we? None of us were there

Firstly - a huge amount of illustrations show the arrow on the "wrong" side of the bow from the 100 Years War period, so that's either artistic license, ill-informed scribes/artists or an accurate representation of a style we've either forgotten about or didn't realise was in use.  If you believe the "every man was to shoot a bow" rule, it's unlikely that the artists were completely etely foreign to the basics of archery, so would be odd for them to get it wrong so often.  Still, could easily be a simple mistake copied by other artists later on.

Secondly - shooting on the right side of the bow over the thumb affects the tension and release of the string.  The reason it works for the Japanese archers is because they use a thumb-ring to release, which doesn't cause the string to pull inwards and disrupt the flight of the arrow.   

If you try and shoot with a Mediterranean / 3 finger under release AND over the thumb, the fingers will drag the string backwards and twist the string to the right, clockwise.  This will roll the arrow away from the side of the bow, either making the flight unpredictable or just causing the arrow to fall off the thumb.  With the arrow on the left side of the bow, resting over the knuckle, the clockwise twist of the string pulls the arrow inwards, against the bow.  The bow keeps it in place, and the release is consistent and predictable.

Ah, well now we've seen that it is infact doable and that some do it. Ive tried, and it works if you are carefully holding tension against the arrow as asian styles do.

 What im getting at is that maybe these venerable bowmen were infact better trained than we may have thought. It would shave seconds off the time it takes to nock an arrow. would it redefine how devastating a volley would be in the last, heartstopping seconds before mounted knights approached the front lines? Maybe in fact excavated bows have markings on multiple places on either side at the arrow pass spot. Wishful thinking...

[Atlatlista]

Marks on either side of the bow might just indicate the existence of lefties. I swear we're real...

I think we view the past way too monolithically. If we have these variations in a world of mass media, coaching, and instructional texts online and in print, why would they not have existed historically?

[1442]

in TBB 4 there's a picture of Ishi shooting his bow and he has the arrow on the thumb side

[PatM]

Ishi shot with a variation of a thumb draw though.

[mikekeswick]

Try using a thumb ring and shooting off your knuckle.
Try using the Mediterranean release shooting off your thumb.
Question answered! Unless you are some sort of freak.....

[toomanyknots]

Try using a thumb ring and shooting off your knuckle.
Try using the Mediterranean release shooting off your thumb.
Question answered! Unless you are some sort of freak.....

Oh I'm a freak alright. You guys have no idea,  . Completely un-bow related, but I also learned to hold a pencil before I was taught in school, as I liked to draw. And I "taught myself" that too... the wrong way of course. I do something I think a caveman would do and hold the pencil on the back of my thumb, don't know why. And no, I never learned the right way!! I have a permanent callus on the back of my thumb from it. I do everything back-asswards. lol Thank god I had people to help me learn to make bows, because I'm sure everyone can picture how that would of turned out if I taught myself!

[PatM]

Many of the Mongolian archers shoot thumb ring off the left side.

[Stefan]

I am not a warbow specialist but I think it would be counterinuitive to shoot over the thumb. If you dont want the string to hit your arm/bracer you twist your bow arm clockwise. The bow will move clockwise a bit too, when your shooting over you thumb your arrow will fall off.

I guess if your shooting a heavy weight longbow it is important that your form is good, twisting your bowarm clockwise makes sence to me.

Stefan

[meanewood]

I think this discusion raises the issue of variation

It's a natural thing and over the course of Medieval and Renaissance archery (hundreds of years) the one thing we should know for sure is, there was variation by the bucket load!

The one thing unfortunate about the "Mary Rose" finds is that we tend to use them to base most of our opinions on the subject.

Conformity was the one thing missing over this period, that is evident from the "Mary Rose" finds themselves such as different bow lengths, strength's and profiles. Different arrow lengths, woods and profiles even in the same sheaves!

I tried shooting off the thumb myself and found it strange but possible.

I suppose the main reason for arguments on this forum has been our dogged insistence on how we think things were done.