Horsebow shape without the horn?

[PatM]

Clearly you've never made one. Why would a bamboo back and wood belly with Siyahs not be fast? Wood has more compression resistance than horn.

[kiltedcelt]

I've not been too impressed by how lax the archery kit is for a lot of SCA folks. Come to think of it, there has been some pretty lax garb in the past as well. I suppose it all depends on your kingdom, or local groups. There isn't much archery in my area so the few folks who are regulars until recently didn't make much of an effort to step up their game when it came to the actually archery implements. It's that whole bit of only re-enacting the "good" parts of the middle ages. You know, like how the real fancy lords could afford the nice fiberglass-backed bows, but the crap-covered peasants were stuck shooting those lame all-wood bows.

[kiltedcelt]

Easy there Pat. The point I was trying to make was that design has to be spot-on to make a bow that shoots fast and hard with minimal handshock. Siyahs by their nature are big heavy levers of wood out at the tips of a bow, which is why many of them are made from the lightest, stiffest, woods like Sitka spruce for example. And, I believe you're wrong regarding the compression resistance of wood versus horn. I'd venture to say that horn is tremendously stronger in compression than almost any wood could be. Also, it depends on the species of wood as to the compression strength. Ipe will be much stronger in compression than say red oak. I've seen my share of other people's experiments with all-wood, no-horn, no sinew "horsebows" on this site and others, and most of those folks will readily admit that the performance of the bows have been less than stellar. There's a reason sinew and horn are used over a wood core. Also, don't forget the whole reason this type of bow was created was because the geographic areas and cultures that gave rise to these bows were in tree-poor areas where they didn't have the ability to make 6'+ length longbows that would heave heavy armor piercing arrows, so they had to make do with what they had. This meant they used shorter wood sections with the laminated siyahs and horn and sinew to add tension and compression.

[mikekeswick]

Clearly you've never made one. Why would a bamboo back and wood belly with Siyahs not be fast? Wood has more compression resistance than horn.

No (most) wood has greater resistance to BENDING than horn. However horn can be compressed upto somewhere around 8% of it's length and wood only 1% of it's length. So from a bow making point of view horn can be bent 8 x further and can therefore store more energy than wood.

[mikekeswick]

Kiltedcelt - These osrt of bows don't differ from any other wood bow - they ALL have to be tillered perfectly to make fast shooting bows with no handshock. Just because these are a funky shape the same rules apply as with any wooden bow.
Sure if you make excessively large tips/recurves/syhias (makes no difference) then of course you will get unwanted side effects. I have never seen any old horsebow made with sitka syhias...that's a TBB thing!
The reason all these ancient cultures used horn/wood/sinew bows is simply that they could, or more importantly their environmental conditions allowed their useage. There definately would have been 6 ft long trees if that's the sort of bows they wanted - maple the wood that was used for the cores would readily grow to 6 ft and make great selfbows.
Most of the hornbow designs are actually made to shoot light arrows.

[mikekeswick]

To answer the original question - yes it is possible to make a short wood only bow that would fool the majority of people. However wood has it's limits, whatever wood you choose and the balance you'll have is finding those limits and altering things to suit. As long as you don't draw too far and  bear in mind these limits then you will get fast shooting bows.
People genarally won't do 'buildalongs' on this sort of thing because it's a little too complicated. As in if you have the required skills to make one of these then you probably won't need a buildalong only a helping hand now and again.
Here are few of my thoughts on the subject - Sinew is the best backing to use. Your recurves can be found in the the crook of a tree where a large branch comes out of the trunk. I'd use ipe or heat treated bamboo (pre tiller well before glue-up!) for the belly. A maple pretapered core may be useful. I'd start your experiments around 55 - 58 inches. Forget any setback in the handle.
Also hornbows aren't actually that difficult to make - it's just a steep learning curve.

[chamookman]

Pardon Me, but what is the SCA ? Bob

[PatM]

There is still plenty of theoretical stuff being tossed around on this thread. We all still hear of the fantastic capabilities of horn but it's rarely like that in real life.
Horn is never actually compressed 8x farther than wood and chrysaling of horn is frequently reported.
 I don't think it's incorrect to say that wood "resists" compression more than horn.  It may collapse sooner but that doesn't mean it's not resisting more than something that just gives, even if it does bounce back.

  Nothing quite makes a person lose credibility about these style of bows more than the mention of Sitka spruce siyah's.
 

[BowEd]

Kevin I believe you can get the scaled down look of a hornbow with an all wood bow but not with the shorter lengthed limbs that a horn bow has at the same draw length.To me it's all about the mass weight/poundage ratio as far as speed goes.I pay attention to what depth the surface of sinew or horn is.When a horn bow is reflexed into a backwards C being only 44" long there is no doubt in my mind as to the resistance and resilience that horn has over wood.The only time horn will chrysal is because of BAD tillering or tapering just as any all wood bow.

[blackhawk]

 Bob it stands for stupid crappy acting 

To answer the question from my opinion yes you can...just make it a lil longer,wider,and not as much unbraced setback...I've done quite a bit of making something similar to what your wanting with wood only,and pushing wood to its limits...and without the use of sinew...you'll need to use the best of materials to pull it off,and your still going to encounter some failure with trial and error pending on how skilled you are...its not easy making these kinds of bows and you are going to have to go into this with the expectation of having some not quite work out the way you want it...IMO yew and osage are the two best woods to use if attempting a selfbow or simple sinew backed bow...and it should be good to primo quality wood as well...as far as backed bows osage,yew,n tempered bamboo will be hour best bet for bellies...some have used ipe,but I have personally found it not as elastic as the aforementioned...there's so many different species of ipe that vary in properties etc etc...the ipe I've used has fretted before yew or osage would've...I haven't made a tempered boo belly bow,but I've seen several good reputation guys who have...the hard part is finding that sweet spot of a bow whis belly isn't overstressed and takes more set than normal crushing too many wood cells and making it noodle wood,or breaking outright...you'll also need something very tension strong for the back as well...again the aforementioned woods excells above the rest if attempting one unbacked...another reason for using the best of the best materials is because you want to give yourself the best chances at success...if using other woods your odds won't be as good...its doable with other woods,but it'll have to be an exceptional piece for the species,and you won't know if its exceptional or not until after you start bending it...if your not highly skilled I'd suggest making a simple sinew backed osage or yew bow with siyah like recurves either heat bent or spliced in....even tho these won't look like one unbraced,at brace n full draw they will be so close that no one who doesn't know much WO t know the difference...OR since your putting so much emphasis on being period correct then do it the same EXACT way they were made...

[BowEd]

Well put Chris since you have been down that road.What the heck is the SCA anyway?......LOL.

[kiltedcelt]

SCA - Society for Creative Anachronism

Mostly a bunch of folks who like playing medieval dress-up. A handful of cool people enjoying reenacting the Middle Ages and the various garb, tools, etc. that go along with it. Mostly a bunch of obsessed folks who eat, sleep, drink, live their hobby - oh wait a minute! That sounds kinda like bowyers! They're not all that different than us bow building folks, especially the archery ones, and like any hobby there are some weird folks.

As to the main subject though, I will defer to all the better advice being given. I freely admit all my knowledge comes from several "learning curve" failures, and what I've read. Clearly I'm no expert. If I was going to go to the trouble to build a Asiatic-looking composite bow, I'd see no point in putting the time and effort into making something that looks like that type of bow without using all the proper materials. Me, I'd rather just make a traditional wood/horn/sinew bow. Someday I will. I think I'll try to better master more traditional styles first though.

[PatM]

It is still entirely worth making a look alike.  A well made one will far outperform even a well made wooden straight bow.
 Think of it as  just a variation of a sinew backed bow. Nothing wrong with them at all.

[kevinsmith5]

As I've found examples of Korean horsebows that are all boo I think I will start there. I'm not so much after "all period correct" as after proving that a stable horsebow can be made for less than $1200 and thereby removing the excuse to allow that dirty F stuff into period shoots.

[kevinsmith5]

In looking at "faux" horsebow pictures where they are unstrung they don't seem to have much reflex at all.