Info wanted on Sioux bow design

[richpierce]

I am fascinated by the shape of the Sioux bows that look like a double humped camel.  Picture below (I hope).   I have a nice osage stave that is about 56".  I could cut it down of course.  I intend to sinew-back the bow.  I also plan to wrap some sinew around the whole bow at a few spots because this stave has a ring of reddish spongy looking wood that makes me nervous about delamination.

Right now my stave is 1" thick in the handle, 1 and a half inch wide, and tapers to 3/4" wide at the tips and 5/8" thick at the tips.  It's still not bending but it flexes just a little.  I would like to get 50 pounds of draw from a short sinew backed bow.

Questions:
Is there a book you would recommend that has info on making these, as far as dimensions, cross-section, etc?
Do these bend in the handle?
What advantage (other than looking awesome) is the reflex/deflex design in such a short bow?
I assume a short pull of 20-24" is right for these bows?
I assume I can grease it and use dry heat to get the curves, then degrease and still get the hide glue and sinew to stick?
If you have made one, what are the dimensions you used?

[Hillbilly]

Questions:
Is there a book you would recommend that has info on making these, as far as dimensions, cross-section, etc?
Do these bend in the handle?
What advantage (other than looking awesome) is the reflex/deflex design in such a short bow?
I assume a short pull of 20-24" is right for these bows?
I assume I can grease it and use dry heat to get the curves, then degrease and still get the hide glue and sinew to stick?
If you have made one, what are the dimensions you used?

I haven't made one of these yet, but it's on the agenda. As for books: Jim Hamm's Bows and Arrows of the Native Americans; Hamm/Allely's Encyclopedia of Native American Bows, Arrows, and Quivers (vol. 2) - Plains and Southwest; Jim Hamm's chapter on Plains Bows in the Traditional Bowyers Bible vol. 3; Reginald Laubin's American Indian Archery: T.M. Hamilton's Native American Bows. They bend through the handle, probably not a lot, though. As for other advantages, seems like Tim Baker theorized somewhere that the double-curve allowed a longer piece of wood to be crammed into a shorter total space. Most of them seem to be quite narrow, around an inch wide or a fuzz more.

[richpierce]

Thanks, I do not have volume 3 yet of the TBB but it sounds like I need it.  I'll put the others on my Christmas list.

[OldBow]

Sioux Bow from Buffalo Bill Cody Museum, Cody, WY

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Pappy]

Looks like they would have a lot of arm slap to me,Don't know just a thought.They look
pretty cool tho.
   Pappy

[richpierce]

Ouch, that would slap right at the wrist.

[a finnish native]

not necessarily. it sees that that string would be too long. The string looks like a sinew one and making knots is not the best way to adjust the brace height. I think what has happened is that the string had to be adjusted with some more twist into it, and the twist has let go when the museum folk or someone else has done something with it.
What comes to the dimensions I have always used 3-3.8 cm handle area width, and tapering to 1,5 cm nocks. The important thing is to bend the stave to reflex ONLY from the handle area. so that it will have a slight v profile. Then let it cure and do not add any deflex to the midlimb. The set will make that naturally, and thus it will take minimal set. You want to have a bend that is evenly making the bow work from all the areas. Here are a few links to a few threads on PA. The first one has my own B profile bow drawn, and you can see it braced in the other pic: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,4232.0.html  http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,2367.0.html

[joewaco78]

Whatdya wanna know bout em? They are reflex bows... Made by wrapping around a tree...  Tis my tribe.. My grandfather had a bow like it :O) And yes I know howto make em..

[Nightmyth]

It's possible even the Museum knows not to leave a bow strung for such long periods of time.
I think the string is on there for looks , not function.

[YewArcher]

Those bows are intentionaly braced low. I would say that it could be  abit higher but to my understanding thet where very very low brace height bows.

The Indians were tough. Wrist slap.....whats that!

SJM

[a finnish native]

those bows are supposed to have lots of reflex and thus it can ofcourse be that the bow is not really strung, but then ahain I have seen bows that have been strung the wrong way also. they don't necessarily know what they are doing.
the string might have also streched since it's likely that it has been strung for over 100 years.

[YewArcher]

Sorry forgot to answer the rest of your questions.

I would make it 1" wide the entire lenght. Perfect rectangle cross section. These bows to the best of my research and knoledge were one width through the bow they did not taper.

You should get the Encyclopidia of native Americn Bows, Arrows and Quivers by Jimm Hamm. That is my main sorce of refernce for all my Indian replicas. I ahve 2 Hickorybows started with this design. have nt ahd time to finish though.

SJM

[YewArcher]

Finnish,

the bow in that pic is strung correctly. No they are not supposed to have allot of reflex. The bow is correct exactly as shown in that museum picture. Again....these bows have a very intentional low brace height.

SJM

[joewaco78]

Questions:
Is there a book you would recommend that has info on making these, as far as dimensions, cross-section, etc? Not sure about books... But yes they used Osage... It was a preferred bow wood..... for 50#@24    I believe 1"  width and 1/3 to 1/2 thickness at the handle.... most were flatbows... but some were more oval shaped... They were also usually poorly tillered haha.. Don't think they figured out tiller as long as it was close...  Also after the initial rough out of the bow.. They usually stuck to taking weight and tiller off of the belly.. Not the sides of the bow... The sides provided much of the weight...  I have never heard specifics about how much to flare the sides though...

Do these bend in the handle? Yes they bend in the handle.

What advantage (other than looking awesome) is the reflex/deflex design in such a short bow? Reflex bow... maybe cast about 170 yards and they have some handshock... But very powerful for a shortbow..
 
I assume a short pull of 20-24" is right for these bows? Yes short draw... Usually to armpit or maybe to sternum...

I assume I can grease it and use dry heat to get the curves, then degrease and still get the hide glue and sinew to stick? If you are going to grease it... Just grease the belly... Not the back... If you grease the back you will have hell when you back it...  As for the curves... There actually isnt much to them... Are you wanting the double horn or just have reflex?

If you have made one, what are the dimensions you used? I haven't made one yet but I plan to..

[joewaco78]

BTW Yew... I didn't know that it made it into the books.. That's awesome... How old is the book? Will a bookstore have it? I would like to take a peek at it!