Glue handle on osage

[Blaflair2]

If I make a hickory backed osage bow do I just glue on the handle? I heard they have a tendency to pop off.

[bubby]

 it won't pop off if it doesn't bend in the handle i usually go 4" grip and 1 1/2" fades, if you glue on an 8-81/2" PC you should be fine

[adb]

You have to glue on the handle before you start tillering the bow. You can't add it later... it will pop off.

[Hamish]

It depends on how thick the belly is and what type of glue you use. A proper bowmaking epoxy like smooth on or a urea formalydehyde glue will work even with a thin belly slat. Other glues will work with thick belly slats, but can lift at the fades or totally pop off because the glue line isn't rigid enough, especially with a thin slat for the belly. I've had that trouble with cheaper or non bowmaking epoxies and titebond.
I'd go for a good glue, let it cure properly before floortillering.

[adb]

I've never had a glue failure with titebond. Not one. Backings, lams or risers.

[JW_Halverson]

I've never had a glue failure with titebond. Not one. Backings, lams or risers.

That goes to show what happens when you take good care on prepping surfaces, mating the two surfaces correctly, and using proper clamping pressure.  But then, you should do that with any glue up with any adhesive.

[Mad Max]

degrease the osage before gluing
I use lacqure thinner because i have it.

[Blaflair2]

I'm using tbII. I'm kinda just going for it so we'll see. I have a design in my head. Gotta try

[Pat B]

Handle risers popping off are a design problem and not a glue problem. If the handle area of the bow bends at all it will be difficult to keep a rigid wood handle attached.

[bubby]

Like was said tite bond 1, 2 or 3  never had a lick of problem, only had one handle pop off and that was because it was bending in the fades to much

[Hamish]

There are many factors that will effect whether your handle will stay on, with Titebond or a non bowmaking epoxy. A flat belly gives better success because the glue line across the fade will go all the way across the limb, giving more surface area. A rounded Torges style belly will concentrate the handle into the fade/limb at a point with much less surface area than a flat belly. This is where you will get a lift if its going to happen. Dean Torges is a very smart man and uses urac or resorcinol for these joins anyway.

If your backing is 1/8" and belly slat is 1/2" and then you glue on a riser, with titebond its more likely to lift at the fade than if you used a 5/8", or 3/4" or even a 1" belly slat. The exposed glueline ends up further away from the transition of fade to the limb. Even if a handle is stiff and not bending it still undergoes stress, even if its not visible to the eye.
If you use a rigid drying glue you're unlikely to have any problems with a 1/2" belly slat at the fades/riser. If your belly slat is a little thin you can always add a core strip or a powerlam at the handle which mimics having a thicker belly slat.
If you always use thick belly slats I could see why one might think Titebond to be bulletproof. My gluing surfaces are prepped meticulously, and clamped with appropriate pressure for the type of glue I choose, yet I have had problems with thinner belly slats.
Don't get me wrong Titebond 3 is an excellent bowmaking glue, my choice for 90% of the time, but it comes in second to the more rigid glues for adding risers, or doing belly patches.

[Dances with squirrels]

Hamish, I tend to disagree. I think the way Dean does it, and me too, the added handle piece tapers not only in thickness, but in width at the same time... dissipating the strain on the glue joint longitudinally and laterally(down and around) at the same time, with no concentration of strain in any one place, a nice byproduct of the radiused cross section.

With a flat bellied dip going straight across the limb, it's harder to effect as gradual a reduction in bend. It is a gradual reduction of flexing, leading into the non-bending handle that keeps the bow from prying itself apart. Dean's dips are low and slow, not steep and fast as often seen as the flat belly bow limb tries to transition to a deep, rigid handle. These are the ones I see prying apart on these sites. Dean's midsection/glued on handle piece, from dip to dip is sometimes 14-15" long... with the dips working a bit where they fade into working limb. It's ok for that glue joint to work and if the dips are executed properly, there's no greater risk of the handle coming off than the backing/core glue joint seperating. My glued on handle/dips are radiused/rounded, often working a bit near the core wood, and I have no issue whatsoever with that glue joint.

[Don Case]

There are many factors that will effect whether your handle will stay on, with Titebond or a non bowmaking epoxy. A flat belly gives better success because the glue line across the fade will go all the way across the limb, giving more surface area. A rounded Torges style belly will concentrate the handle into the fade/limb at a point with much less surface area than a flat belly. This is where you will get a lift if its going to happen. Dean Torges is a very smart man and uses urac or resorcinol for these joins anyway.

If your backing is 1/8" and belly slat is 1/2" and then you glue on a riser, with titebond its more likely to lift at the fade than if you used a 5/8", or 3/4" or even a 1" belly slat. The exposed glueline ends up further away from the transition of fade to the limb. Even if a handle is stiff and not bending it still undergoes stress, even if its not visible to the eye.
If you use a rigid drying glue you're unlikely to have any problems with a 1/2" belly slat at the fades/riser. If your belly slat is a little thin you can always add a core strip or a powerlam at the handle which mimics having a thicker belly slat.
If you always use thick belly slats I could see why one might think Titebond to be bulletproof. My gluing surfaces are prepped meticulously, and clamped with appropriate pressure for the type of glue I choose, yet I have had problems with thinner belly slats.
Don't get me wrong Titebond 3 is an excellent bowmaking glue, my choice for 90% of the time, but it comes in second to the more rigid glues for adding risers, or doing belly patches.

What is a "Powerlam"?
Thanks
Don

[Hamish]

Power lam  is a  lamination  around 12"-16" long that you can put between the back and belly slat, under the riser and fades, just into the working part of the limb. It has tapered ends so it blends in seamlessly when the belly slat is glued  over the top of it. Effectively a core lam only for the riser area, rather than the whole length of the bow, beefing it up in thickness especially near the fade area. Now If you need to thicken the riser for a good handle it will  be further away from the fade, less potential for lifting if you use a non rigid glue.

Hey Squirrels, I can only say I learnt the hard way in my early years of bowmaking,  using hardware grade epoxies, and titebond for risers and having problems. To be fair I had more success with titebond 3 than the cheap epoxies. With the titebond the join problems were cosmetic, never in threat of failing, just tiny lifts at the sharpish points of Torges style  handles.
My friend who came from a fibreglass bowmaking background, said he used epoxy and never had any problems, with his foray into all wood, board bows, with glued on risers. He used an industrial grade, after I tried it I discovered dried to a glass hard surface, unlike what I had been using before. Not all epoxies are equal, for high stress purposes. Never had a problem since, with the industrial epoxy, or ever with urac on risers.


Dean to the best of my knowledge uses only urac or resorcinol, and they are much more rigid than than titebond, and will work with virtually any design gluing on risers. I prefer his style of bow over the true flatbow. Semi flatbow has a much more organic, artistic feel and look to it, no hard corners.

[Dances with squirrels]

I agree with everything you said there.

I've only ever had 1 bow begin to lift where the handle piece feathered out and it was very early in my bowmaking. I used Smooth On, but I think the surfaces were too smooth and perhaps I used too much clamping pressure, didn't mix the qlue edequately, or the surface was contaminated or something. I remember it was a piece of purpleheart glued to a bamboo backed yew bow.

Since then, I've used Urac, and then Smooth On for the last several years for my handle pieces and if the gluing surfaces haven't ran through the thickness sander and been sufficiently roughed up with very coarse paper on the drum, I work them with the toothing plane blade after they've been properly mated.

I haven't used Titebond much in my bowmaking. I know some folks have good success with it, but things are working well for me the way I'm doing it so my plan is to continue