Author Topic: Couple questions on a laminate  (Read 3634 times)

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Offline KShip85

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Couple questions on a laminate
« on: June 20, 2013, 02:39:58 pm »
 I'm fairly inexperienced with building laminates and I had a couple quick questions.  First, I'm working on a tri-lam of ERC belly, walnut core, and hoping on a bamboo back.  The bamboo I have has a fairly high crown to it at the moment and was wondering if that would help offset that it's normally too strong of a back for ERC, or at least that's what I've read.  Also, I've not worked with bamboo before and was wondering if I have to sand the nodes down fairly uniform or if it's ok to leave them as is.  I want to say I saw a bow once with the nodes left as is and I kind of liked the appearance of it.  Secondly, I was planning on making it bend some through the handle and wondered if I add another lam to the middle of the belly and feather out the ends to mid limb or so if it would still be in danger of popping off.  I feel like as it is I will be pushing to have enough thickness in the middle to keep from bending too much at the handle.  I guess it wouldn't have to bend in the middle but I liked the idea since its a fairly short bow and I was shooting for 26" draw, but I could settle for 24 if I had to.  I'm fairly sure I could reach that draw with a stiff handle. 

Thanks for the help and let me know if I need to give any other information.

Kip
Kip Shipley    Bloomington, IN

Offline bubby

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 03:04:40 pm »
me personally I would use a maple backer, and i'd save the boo for another glue up, and you should be able to add that belly lam, I've done that on bows that got to bending to much in the middle, if you do use the boo leave the nodes proud, don't sand'em flat
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline adb

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2013, 03:44:29 pm »
You don't have to add a handle riser on a tri-lam to get it to not bend in the handle... you have to tiller it to not bend in the handle. That's assuming you're building an ELB tri-lam.

I agree on the bamboo... use it with a stronger compression belly wood like osage or ipe.

Offline bushboy

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2013, 05:06:20 pm »
I would think that a high crown bamboo slat would put more stress on the belly. Bamboo is very strong in tentsion so the thinner the better! Bout 1/8 max thick.Imho,a dense piece of elm can handle boo if you heat treat the bajeepers out of it prior to glue up.I usually floor tiller the belly to about a 30# bow and you will end up with at least double that after glue up! Albeit I'm talking a bout a bamboo backed elm not a trilam cuz I never did one of those yet.
Some like motorboats,I like kayaks,some like guns,I like bows,but not the wheelie type.

Offline KShip85

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2013, 10:31:44 pm »
I would think that a high crown bamboo slat would put more stress on the belly.

Really?  I was always under the impression that a high crown on the back of a bow was effectively the same as trapping the back.  Maybe I misunderstood that.

Kip
Kip Shipley    Bloomington, IN

Offline bushboy

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2013, 10:38:24 pm »
I might be wrong,been there done that!lol!
Some like motorboats,I like kayaks,some like guns,I like bows,but not the wheelie type.

Offline Joec123able

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2013, 10:45:48 pm »
I would think that a high crown bamboo slat would put more stress on the belly.

Really?  I was always under the impression that a high crown on the back of a bow was effectively the same as trapping the back.  Maybe I misunderstood that.

Kip

Pretty sure you're right, kip.
I like osage

Offline KShip85

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2013, 01:00:29 am »
Bubby, thanks for the input.  I had considered maple as a backer but I have the boo on hand and the last maple backing strip I bought I felt was not quite worth the price.  I've got a split log I harvested in the winter I can try and cut a strip from.  Do you think I'd be in danger of fretting with the boo/ERC combo?

Adb, this ones not an ELB, I get what you're saying though.  Where does ERC or the rest of the junipers fall in regards to compression strength?  I always hear ipe and Osage as near/at the top.  I've seen some impressive bows on here from the juniper family and heard erc is good in compression.  Just never sure where to place it on the compression strength continuum.

Kip Shipley    Bloomington, IN

Offline adb

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2013, 02:08:50 am »
I have limited experience with ERC, but if I was picking a compression strong wood to go with bamboo, I already mentioned I wouldn't pick it. ERC works well as a selfbow, backed with rawhide or even sinew... but bamboo wouldn't be an option for me.

To be honest, I don't make bows with bamboo anymore. Too labour intensive, too inconsistent, and checks too easily in my dry climate. I can make an excellent maple, ash or hickory backing in 1/10th of the time, and have it much more consistent and predictable.

Offline bubby

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2013, 06:12:07 am »
Kip if ya got the boo and want to give it a whirl we may all find out, i'd still go for the maple but that's me, we all learn by doing, the worst that can happen is ya get hit by some flying wood >:D
failure is an option, everyone fails, it's how you handle it that matters.
The few the proud the 27🏹

Offline DarkSoul

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2013, 07:27:57 am »
I have zero experience with ERC (eastern red cedar), but I agree that bamboo is probably not the best choice. Although I've seen a few bamboo backed ERC/juniper bows (google 'booniper'), it's tricky to get it right. Maple, ash, white oak or elm would be milder backings be a better match to the compression strength of ERC. Save the bamboo for a more compression strong wood. ERC is not really compression strong, but it has a very high elasticity.
On the other hand, you are right that a highly crowned back(ing) will alleviate some of the compression forces from the belly. A highly crowned (or trapped) bamboo backing will have a higher chance of success than a flat bamboo backing.

It sounds like you need a powerlam in the handle. Run a (Google) search for the word powerlam. It's placed between two layers (for instance the belly and the core, or the backing and the core which I personally prefer) and not on top of the belly. The powerlam is about 1/8" thick and 18" long and beefs up the handle area just enough to shift the main bend away from the handle. However, it must not be too thick that it will create a really stiff handle. 1/8" thickness or maybe 3/16" is plenty. If you wish to add a riser (in the form of a block of wood on the belly side of the bow), you should still place a powerlam as well, as this stiffens the handle area sufficient to prevent a popped off riser block. A powerlam is easy to make, if you have a beltsander, and really makes for an easier tillering and safer handle.

You can scrape off the rind from the bamboo, or leave it on - it's your call. But whatever you do, leave those nodes raised! Run a search for 'rind' to find some topics from the past, discussing the subject.
"Sonuit contento nervus ab arcu."
Ovid, Metamorphoses VI-286

Offline Gordon

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2013, 01:03:35 pm »
I've seen successful bows made of bamboo and hickory bellies. Hickory isn't a great compression wood and it seems to hold up okay. I don't see why ERC would be any different.
Gordon

Offline KShip85

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2013, 03:52:22 pm »
Well, after some searching and thinking about all the input I think I'm going to skip the boo and go for either maple or ash. 

Can I skip the power lam and simply cut the backing thick enough to provide me with enough meat in the handle or will having the back too thick overpower the belly?

Kip
Kip Shipley    Bloomington, IN

Offline adb

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Re: Couple questions on a laminate
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2013, 03:59:49 pm »
Maple or ash... 1/4" thick is about right.