Arg,... How to tell good hickory lumber from bad hickory lumber...?

[toomanyknots]

Might i suggest just cutting down a tree and starting from staves? I have had great luck with that
Greg

lol 

[DLH]

I think DarkSoul may be on to something with the fungus I have seen logs set out for months at a time at a sawmill around here before being cut. A lot of times the sawmill doesn't handle their wood for the purpose of bow building. Logs can set outside a long time for furniture use or even pallet use or that's how it seems around here. Another thing if bugs get into the log before its sawn and the lumber isn't kiln dried they can be in your board. I think that's another reason the kiln dry wood. But I'm sure you would have seen bug damage so that's kinda out.

[Pat B]

The only bad hickory I've ever seen for bow wood was a 12" diameter hickory log that was given to me. It sat on the ground for a week or so before it was squared off and put it into a dry garage for 2 years to dry.  It was gonna be used for a mantle in a new house but a better choice was found. After I got the log I had it resawn into backing strips and bow blanks. The first piece I used for a backing strip on an osage bow failed by breaking straight across the grain. After that I studied the wood carefully and found some slight discoloration and the woof had a "powdery" feel to it. Every bit of this wood was used for kindling for our wood stove.
 This is also when I called Tite-Bond to see if I could remove the backing(belly wood was still good) and they told me to heat it to 150deg(F) and the glue would release.
  The only way you can be sure a bow stave, board or tree stave, is good it to cut it and season it yourself. That way you know it was handled properly for bow wood.

[toomanyknots]

The only bad hickory I've ever seen for bow wood was a 12" diameter hickory log that was given to me. It sat on the ground for a week or so before it was squared off and put it into a dry garage for 2 years to dry.  It was gonna be used for a mantle in a new house but a better choice was found. After I got the log I had it resawn into backing strips and bow blanks. The first piece I used for a backing strip on an osage bow failed by breaking straight across the grain. After that I studied the wood carefully and found some slight discoloration and the woof had a "powdery" feel to it. Every bit of this wood was used for kindling for our wood stove.
 This is also when I called Tite-Bond to see if I could remove the backing(belly wood was still good) and they told me to heat it to 150deg(F) and the glue would release.
  The only way you can be sure a bow stave, board or tree stave, is good it to cut it and season it yourself. That way you know it was handled properly for bow wood.

Ha, ya, I got a stave I gotta remove the backing from now too,  . I hope mine goes as well as yours! I don't know, when bend testing a nice uniform 1/8" thick backing of this hickory, it just start cracking when barely even bending it. I tried all 40 or so backings, 6 of em didn't start "cracking" when bending em slightly. I would take any red oak any day over this stuff. I still ain't gonna use one of those 6 backings on a bow though. Heres some photos I posted in a previous thread:

[toomanyknots]

I think DarkSoul may be on to something with the fungus I have seen logs set out for months at a time at a sawmill around here before being cut. A lot of times the sawmill doesn't handle their wood for the purpose of bow building. Logs can set outside a long time for furniture use or even pallet use or that's how it seems around here. Another thing if bugs get into the log before its sawn and the lumber isn't kiln dried they can be in your board. I think that's another reason the kiln dry wood. But I'm sure you would have seen bug damage so that's kinda out.

I was thinkin something like that, but it really doesn't show any signs of anything like that. It just plain sucks. The only thing is it is a little more porous and lighter than normal, but other than that, it is still normal awesome smelling hickory. 

[Olanigw (Pekane)]

I was thinkin something like that, but it really doesn't show any signs of anything like that. It just plain sucks. The only thing is it is a little more porous and lighter than normal, but other than that, it is still normal awesome smelling hickory. 

You wouldn't necessarily see anything without a microscope.  Fungus is often well established before you can see it.

Fungus would account for it losing strength and density, as it munches the wood.

[toomanyknots]

I was thinkin something like that, but it really doesn't show any signs of anything like that. It just plain sucks. The only thing is it is a little more porous and lighter than normal, but other than that, it is still normal awesome smelling hickory. 

You wouldn't necessarily see anything without a microscope.  Fungus is often well established before you can see it.

Fungus would account for it losing strength and density, as it munches the wood.

Hmm, so fungus will make the wood lighter? Well, that gives me one thing to go on so far, look for good solid dense stuff! Thank ya. Here are a couple pics to compare, the backing on the left is good quality, like rubber wood. The other one is the firewood:

[BOWMAN53]

The white sapp wood on the right board is what you want. If you notice on the left board, on the left side theres a strip of white, that makes me think the rest of it is just light heartwood. now i could be wrong, but thats my thoughts on it. Sapp wood is better, heart wood is more brittle but it can still make a bow.

[toomanyknots]

The white sapp wood on the right board is what you want. If you notice on the left board, on the left side theres a strip of white, that makes me think the rest of it is just light heartwood. now i could be wrong, but thats my thoughts on it. Sapp wood is better, heart wood is more brittle but it can still make a bow.

The left backing is actually all white sapwood, my camera probably just makes it look weird. The right backing has a strip of sapwood on the side, and is mostly heartwood like you said. Ya, the hickory I have used up till now was all white sapwood. On another note, after bend testing some of that white oak I got, it doesn't seem all that bad I guess. It actually seems somewhat usable. I just remember comparing it to the hickory I was using at first, and there was no comparison at the time. I guess sometimes my memory can kind of over exaggerate things, . It is just such an ugly color though, like a cat puke gray, or something. It just wouldn't look near as good as a white hickory backing on a bow. Maybe I'll try staining a bow I use it on, or try an oil finish like tung oil, that usually makes everything nice and pretty... 

[Pat B]

Well seasoned, unaffected hickory should feel dense and be hard to scrape. Check out your next board by scraping it with a knife. If there is any discoloration, reject it. You want only sapwood, too.
 See if you can find a quality wood workers supplier for hickory. I bought a 8/4"x6"x10' hickory board a few years ago from a semi-local lumber supplier for about $30 and got lots of very good backing strips out of it. I cut it to a 6' piece and a 4' piece and resawed the 6' piece into backing strips.

[hurlbri1]

One thing I'm beginning to notice on Hickory, especially on my 14 broken hickory board bows...and this assumes that backing grain should be the same as flatbow grain (I have no experience with backing)...is that examining the side in addition to the prospective belly or back tells you where it's going to break.  Based on the diagram on TBB II, page 35, plus my very limited experience with a pile of broken hickory board bows, the side grain has proven to be very important.

So I guess I am suggesting looking at the side grain as well.  Perhaps you've already examined it...if not, a non-parallel side grain MAY explain why it keeps breaking on you (I keep thinking of page 35)...especially if you see a difference in side grain orientation from one side to the other--there's something weird going on in the middle of that board.

Every break of my 14 bows was along the angled side grain. I spent at least an hour in Owl Lumber everytime I search for a piece of hickory...luckily for me they appreciate my fickleness and sometimes even help me choose a board when they have some spare time.  Sometimes I have to leave without a board.
 
Hickory is some incredibly tough stuff so it's really weird that it keeps breaking on you.  Keep us posted to see if you cracked the nut on choosing the right board, heaven knows I can use that advice!

[mikekeswick]

There is definately something wrong....
I suspect some sort of damage to the wood. Without seeing and feeling it it's hard to tell what.
The heartwood of hickory is still plenty good enough for backing as long as the grain is running correctly.
 

[Hrothgar]

Since the fungus factor got mentioned, I was wondering about a couple elm sapling/small trees that died in my backyard during last year's drought. They are still standing--one dropped its leaves at the end of July last year, the other didn't bud-out this spring. Are they firewood or bow wood?

[toomanyknots]

Since the fungus factor got mentioned, I was wondering about a couple elm sapling/small trees that died in my backyard during last year's drought. They are still standing--one dropped its leaves at the end of July last year, the other didn't bud-out this spring. Are they firewood or bow wood?

I would think either bugs or something got to em by now, but they might be ok?

There is definately something wrong....
I suspect some sort of damage to the wood. Without seeing and feeling it it's hard to tell what.
The heartwood of hickory is still plenty good enough for backing as long as the grain is running correctly.
 

Ya, I have a bit left of one board, enough for like 4 or so belly laminates worth. But I am wondering if I should even try it on a belly. I broke all the backings when bend testing them, and I didn't even bend them that far. They were all less than an 1/8" thick. They just started making cracking noises as soon as I bent them a tiny bit. At first I had like 6 out of forty that didn't break, but then I tested them again, they all blew too. I am very disappointed.