Author Topic: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!  (Read 31090 times)

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Offline k-hat

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Offline Hrothgar

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2013, 10:32:25 pm »
I've been following this post for the past couple days and decided to contribute my 2 cents worth--like my daughter says, "opinions are like ....", anyway. It seems that any material that can be applied to the back of a bow and prevent or lessen the likelihood of the bow's exploding is good. I agree with PatM that it would take 2 or 3 layers of linen to equal the depth/mass of another material such as rawhide, goat skin or sinew. That's one reason I can't buy into the argument that multiple layers of linen serve no purpose. While doing so will add weight, it still won't be any heavier than a leather backing.
And to say that with time Titebond  ( I've never tried TBIII) will dry and get brittle just isn't true. I have a partially full quart bottle of TBII with dried glue in the nozzle and around the cap. Every now and then I have to remove it to keep the glue flowing, yet its still flexible and pliable.
     I don't have a degree in engineering, but it seems that part of the strength of a material is its cross pattern or perpendicular weave. While sinew will stretch and retract linearly like a rubber band, the cross design in woven material would lend additional support to a linear grain, especially in woods that aren't interlocking grain like elm or hackberry are. For example the heavy leather wrapping found on the Meare Heath bow which also gave evidence of having been drastically, if not purposely, grain violated on its back.
Regardless, I've heard that cracking sound before, and in one instance wanted to believe that it had somehow come from the tillering tree, so I continued to shoot this cracked linen backed hickory short bow for several days until the limb was bending so far and so easily that the break could no longer be ignored. The bow never exploded, maybe because of the cloth backing...who knows. Just my 2 cents.
" To be, or not to be"...decisions, decisions, decisions.

Offline Carson (CMB)

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2013, 03:39:06 am »
I dont have experience with cloth backings, but if I were to use linen or silk cloth backing I would use hide glue.  I find it peculiar that on this forum, hide glue hasnt been mentioned once in this thread for applying cloth backing. I recall reading an article from the Society of Primitive Technology publication that determined through testing that the tensile strength of a sinew backing was more the result of the hide glue in the sinew/glue matrix than was the sinew.  If I am going to apply a protein based backing (whether it be plant based linen, or animal based silk), I am going to opt for a protein based glue...hide or fish glue.

Look I even found the article I mentioned :    http://www.primitiveways.com/secrets_of_sinew.html

After reading this article again, I am wondering if shrinkage of the cloth has a lot to do with it.
"The bow is the old first lyre,
the mono chord, the initial rune of fine art
The humanities grew out from archery as a flower from a seed
No sooner did the soft, sweet note of the bow-string charm the ear of genius than music was born, and from music came poetry and painting and..." Maurice Thompso

Offline lesken2011

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2013, 08:42:27 am »
Yeah, Carson. I started to mention it, but felt like I didn't have enough experience with it to chime in. I only used hide glue once for snake skin, but loved how it turned out. I used titebond on the only linen backed bow I made with success, but wondered how it would have turned out with the hide glue.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Kenny from Mississippi, USA

Offline k-hat

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2013, 08:44:40 am »
That's worth giving a try Carson, i hadn't considered it.  Guess in my mind hide glue is for "primitive stuff", but I bet you're right.  If i remember correctly from TBB, hide glue is stronger than TB2.  The only downfall is moisture weakens it.

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2013, 09:39:19 am »
fiidler, but your backing did work.

You said, " I could visually see it's outline through the linen. Luckily it didn't brake!"

A poorly chosen board with many run offs will break no matter which backing is used as will a poorly tillered bow.

I always advise beginners to back early efforts for ADDED insurance.

Jawge
Set Happens!
If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline steelslinger

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2013, 12:44:35 pm »
I've been following this post for the past couple days and decided to contribute my 2 cents worth--like my daughter says, "opinions are like ....", anyway. It seems that any material that can be applied to the back of a bow and prevent or lessen the likelihood of the bow's exploding is good. I agree with PatM that it would take 2 or 3 layers of linen to equal the depth/mass of another material such as rawhide, goat skin or sinew. That's one reason I can't buy into the argument that multiple layers of linen serve no purpose. While doing so will add weight, it still won't be any heavier than a leather backing.
And to say that with time Titebond  ( I've never tried TBIII) will dry and get brittle just isn't true. I have a partially full quart bottle of TBII with dried glue in the nozzle and around the cap. Every now and then I have to remove it to keep the glue flowing, yet its still flexible and pliable.
     I don't have a degree in engineering, but it seems that part of the strength of a material is its cross pattern or perpendicular weave. While sinew will stretch and retract linearly like a rubber band, the cross design in woven material would lend additional support to a linear grain, especially in woods that aren't interlocking grain like elm or hackberry are. For example the heavy leather wrapping found on the Meare Heath bow which also gave evidence of having been drastically, if not purposely, grain violated on its back.
Regardless, I've heard that cracking sound before, and in one instance wanted to believe that it had somehow come from the tillering tree, so I continued to shoot this cracked linen backed hickory short bow for several days until the limb was bending so far and so easily that the break could no longer be ignored. The bow never exploded, maybe because of the cloth backing...who knows. Just my 2 cents.


This has been my experience with the TB products as well.

Offline The Gopher

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2013, 01:03:04 pm »
i think the bowyer has too large of an impact on the final product to approach this from a finished bow standpoint. This engineer sees a set of near identical strips of wood (3/4" wide and 3/16" thick) ripped from the same board. make sure to randomize the strips then select half to be bent till broken as is and half to be glued up with linen and TBII. Since wood is wood, we need a larger sample size to make the statistics good, i'd say 10 each which still probably isn't enough but it is more practical than doing 100 each.

I would then clamp the end of a strip in a vise and pull on the other end with a scale until it breaks, noting the distance it was pulled when it broke and the poundage it broke at.

Now someone is going to say, "yeah but this isn't a bow". Well you could make it a simple bow by doing a quick pyramid taper on the strips, but you are already starting to creep into the "bowyer influence" area when you do that. The point is to see if adding a cloth backing has an impact on how wood breaks and i think the above outline would do just fine and could be done in a day for some ambitious person. 
45# at 27"