Author Topic: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!  (Read 31342 times)

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Offline dragonman

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 05:11:59 pm »
when I read about cloth backings in the TBB, I thought it sounded like a good idea......so I thought I test it out on an old rubbish bow first....I got some good quality strong linen cloth and glued it with TB2....then tested it to destruction.....it broke clean through the limb as if there was no cloth there....I tried the same with silk..the same thing....IMHO....cloth backings do nothing at all and are a waste of time except for looks.
Except using epoxy maybe?  tried gluing black linen on a back with epoxy, everyone thought it was fibreglass...looked just like it...this time it did maybe up the performance a little bit....but when I tried breaking it...it broke clean through as wood normaly does....TBB says it protects the back...but not enough to make it worth bothering with I'd say
'expansion and compression'.. the secret of life is to balance these two opposing forces.......

Offline Thesquirrelslinger

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 05:21:07 pm »
when I read about cloth backings in the TBB, I thought it sounded like a good idea......so I thought I test it out on an old rubbish bow first....I got some good quality strong linen cloth and glued it with TB2....then tested it to destruction.....it broke clean through the limb as if there was no cloth there....I tried the same with silk..the same thing....IMHO....cloth backings do nothing at all and are a waste of time except for looks.
Except using epoxy maybe?  tried gluing black linen on a back with epoxy, everyone thought it was fibreglass...looked just like it...this time it did maybe up the performance a little bit....but when I tried breaking it...it broke clean through as wood normaly does....TBB says it protects the back...but not enough to make it worth bothering with I'd say
Was the linen bleached? How thick was it?
Try rawhide...
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Offline dragonman

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2013, 05:29:35 pm »
it was top quality, expensive Irish linen  (Irish is traditionally the best...so they say)  and pretty thick...not a thin fine cloth....dunno if it was bleached though...cant see why it would be....

yeh, I agree...rawhide works great and even if the bow breaks the rawhide holds it together....better than cloth in all respects
'expansion and compression'.. the secret of life is to balance these two opposing forces.......

Offline k-hat

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2013, 05:41:14 pm »
Dragonman I think the error in your test is using a "rubbish bow".  I assume that means destined for failure.  And your assessment of "broke as if the cloth wasn't there" seems like a fair amount of assumption.  Can you prove it didn't hold on for an inch or two longer than otherwise?

Just for the sake of science, i may take my old retired bow out and see how far i can yank'r back before she goes to pieces...

JW, could i borry some o' that armor?  ;)  BTW, can't wait to see the video of you performing this test >:D

go figure, the thousands of bows that have been made with that useless cloth backing just weighing them down ::)

Actually i look forward to seeing if we can really test this.  After all, don't wanna use the stuff if'n it don't do nutn. ;)

Offline JW_Halverson

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2013, 05:47:30 pm »
The only real test would one series of limbs that was backed and another set unbacked as controls.  Both sets of limbs would have to be engineered to fail at exactly the same set of conditions. 

Now I am wondering if I can manufacture a set of limbs, artificially induce an incipient splinter, THEN back it and test to death.

Either way, I gotta have my friend Mikey, the tattoo artist, do a very old school inking on the limb that says "Born To Lose"!
Guns have triggers. Bicycles have wheels. Trees and bows have wooden limbs.

Offline Thesquirrelslinger

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2013, 05:49:49 pm »
Keep in mind a few things.
IMO, bleaching cloth- silk, linen, cotton, WHATEVER-
WEAKENS IT.

Also in TBB it warns NOT to use cloth backings on a board stave unless its nearly flawless because they really aren't that strong. I have had good luck with burlap on a board stave, but it was overbuilt, a light draw, and I put 2 layers on with TB2...
 Plus the thing was not in danger.
Cable backs are nice.

If you think bleached muslin, cotton, or linen is "weakened", I suggest tease one of those burlap cords loose and test it with a scale.  I cannot for the life of me figure out why people persist in using burlap?
Well, Burlap is free for me. I do this on a zero budget. I cut my own wood for the most part.
Plus burlap is jute fibers...
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Offline k-hat

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2013, 05:53:49 pm »
Another thought to ponder: 

A tension break in a bow I think can be different from lifting a splinter.  The whole conversation got started cuz someone said that the fabric won't hold down splinters.  I may concede on that, given that it doesn't mean that it won't hold the bow together once the splinter lifts.  This has been my experience and countless others-- a splinter lifts and the bow holds due to the backing.

I know, a splinter lifts due to tension stresses and can break a bow.  But A BOW CAN BREAK IN TENSION without ever lifting a splinter.  That's a different beast all together.  I had a silk backed bow snap once that was doomed to failure (wood was too brittle/dry rot).   It broke clean across the limb (the backing "broke" flush with the wood)... no splinters.  A break creates sharp edges... is it not possible that the fabric backing is more or less "cut" by the edges projecting toward the underside of the backing of the broken limb (a la my bow break and dragonman's experience)??

Offline dragonman

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2013, 06:00:37 pm »
I'm just telling it as I saw it Hat...I realise it wasnt the most scientific of tests... and it doent prove much in the eyes of others,.but it convinced me not to  bother with cloth backings....the amount of protection is very minimal.....so I thought I'd mention it....yeh, your right probably it held on a second longer... all I am saying is that in my humble opinion...it dont do a lot
 TBB led me to believe it would prevent that type of breakage...where the limbs blow apart, but it didnt...didnt even come close..

'expansion and compression'.. the secret of life is to balance these two opposing forces.......

Offline dragonman

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2013, 06:07:08 pm »
It just came to me...as the original post says..its the glue that makes the threads brittle..they may be as strong as wood fibres ( linen fibres)  , but not once they are soaked in glue and dried hard...then they lose their tensile strength.....
'expansion and compression'.. the secret of life is to balance these two opposing forces.......

Offline vinemaplebows

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2013, 08:27:33 pm »
Anyone else run any tests? Seems if I recall right back in the 40's they use compressed paper for backing? I have used paper drywall tape many times in the past, also have had good luck with cloth as well.


VMB
Debating is an intellectual exchange of differing views...with no winners.

Offline Thesquirrelslinger

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2013, 08:29:54 pm »
Fibergl@$$ wallboard tape, applied in 3 layers, over a board bow, makes a very good backing...
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Offline rossfactor

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2013, 08:48:11 pm »
Squirrel, FB is a very bad word.

I'd repeat what I said earlier.  Silk and Linen fibers are both MUCH stronger than wood fibers. 

The force per area on a bows back is much weaker than the strength per area of silk or linen fibers.

The real question probably lies in how a bow breaks under tension.

Gabe

Humboldt County CA.

Offline H Rhodes

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2013, 01:44:48 am »
just because you put a cloth backer on a bow doesn't guarantee success, there is a difference between "iffy" grain and " I need to where a helmet when I draw this" grain, it's not a cure all for lousy grain, Bub

Yep!  X2 what bubby said. 

I backed two bows with cloth and tightbond, one a pecan and the other osage, that raised splinters on their backs.  Both bows were still shooting and may have lasted a long while unbacked, but I glued some 7 oz. linen canvas on them with tightbond II and they are still shooting a couple years later.  You can see the outline of the splinters through the cloth, but they have never raised any further.  I think it saved those two bows.  If a bows back is going to break, cloth ain't going to save it.  I have only backed a few of the bows that I have made so take my post with a grain of salt.   I don't like fooling around with backings anyway and prefer a simple selfbow these days.  I have made enough bows now that I don't waste time trying to administer CPR or patch up a piece of wood that doesn't want to be a bow.   
Howard
Gautier, Mississippi

Offline bubbles

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2013, 03:26:29 am »
I've had  2 bows break with linen backings - One I posted about recently - a 45# 68" ntn bow - top limb snapped clean in half - no splinters, just a sudden snap.  Trying to get to 30" with a "square" tiller and a 10" stiff handle - a combination of too dry wood and bad tillering and long draw length.    Another was with an extremely light linen backing that I heat treated to death to the point that the glue became brittle. Getting over zealous with the heat gun I guess.  But I've had  many more bows hold together than have broken with linen backings.   

Offline hurlbri1

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Re: Cloth backing and tite bond/wood glues, the myth!!
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2013, 02:55:55 pm »
Wow, great discussion!  Of course this appeals to the engineer/ physics teacher in me...I'm mostly loosely replying to Rossfactor since I have 4 working bows and about 15 that exploded in my hands--none of which were backed.

One measure used to evaluate a bow's breaking point is the the rupture tension of wood.  A different measure--which may or may not be more useful--is Young's Modulus which is basically tension divided by compression...loosely. 

Lifting a splinter, to me, is not just about tension--it's the relationship between tension and compression.  While we think that linen/ silk/ cloth works only in tension (and I guess technically it does), I am throwing this out there (a bit on the Devil's Advocate side) that cloth's tension strength is what "pushes back" the compression forces felt by the belly of the bow.

I might even argue that the reason a splinter lifts is soley due to the compressive forces.  Think of it this way--push your finger into a balloon--the balloon stretches around your finger.  Yes, it's the tension you feel on your finger, but you compressed the balloon.  The balloon is the tension capability of a bow's back, and the compression is your finger.  By adding cloth, you are adding to the force that the bow's back pushes on the compression forces, like the balloon. 

Where the cloth helps is where wood is not uniform in density, like at growth rings/ hidden knots/ grain run off.  The compression forces that push on the back of the bow are higher in less dense places, putting more force on the ring separations and hence the splinter lifting.  There's little doubt in my mind that cloth will help add the tension strength needed to "push back" the compression forces.  Newton's 3rd law--forces in pairs--hence the "push back".

So I am in agreement with Rossfactor that, silk, properly applied, would prevent the wood from breaking.  However, force applied that exceeds, fundamentally, the capability of a given wood species Young's Modulus will break, regardless of the backing.

Backing does two things, at least in my head scientifically: 1) it adds tension in the places the wood cannot due to nonuniform density and 2) helps compensate for Bowyer mistakes--cut too deep with a bandsaw, poor tillering, poor grain runoff, etc. 

A good piece of hickory, 2.5 inches wide, and 9/16th width and 68 inches NTN should be able to draw 60# without breaking or lifting a splinter because the wood itself is capable.  Now, if I were trying for 60#, I'd back it because a) my choice in wood is not the best yet 2) I make lots of mistakes.

So no, I don't think adding silk or anything else make the wood "stronger" per se, but it definitely helps the wood live up to its capability independent of Bowyer skill.  If ya got suspect wood and some grain runoff, I'd absolutely back it.

Rossfactor: those weird numbers about the wood failing the silk making have to do with the way it was tested, I suspect.  Tension testing, when testing for just tension, is quite different than bending something till it breaks.  That's why I prefer Young's modulus versus tension rupture...not that there's necessarily a whole ton of difference, it opens the floor to multiple different analyses, versus just the rupture tension.
"All science is either physics or stamp collecting" -Ernest Rutherford