What Is Primitive REALLY ?

[twisted hickory]

Just out of interest has anyone on here ever tried persistance hunting? eg. running a deer down on foot.

I have chased and killed a couple of deer by tracking them walking not running. It took 4 hours in each case till the deer would allow me to get close enuf to shoot(rifle). It is very intresting to see what the deer does. Towards the end it is almost as if the deer is curious as to why you are trailing it.
Greg

[Holten101]

The oldest bow yet (to my knowledge) was stiff handled (7000 BC, Holmegård bow), as was the 3200 BC Hjarnø bow (in essence).

I considder anything that COULD have been made with stone tools and matrials available to stone age man, primitive.

Cheers

[JackCrafty]

This is a good type of thread that comes up very once in a while.  Glad to see the thoughtful responses.

My two cents:  Primitive is limited by what we can hunt with in accordance with our state laws.  We try to use all natural materials but some of us can't hunt with stone points, for example, so we have to "cheat" and use steel.  We also have to wear orange on public lands (kinda clashes with buckskin) and we also don't have the luxury of waiting for a dry day to hunt, so we sometimes use man-made waterproof finishes, bowstrings, paints, and glues.

All tools are fair game, in my opinion.  After all, this is primitive "archer" not primitive "tooler". 

[Pat B]

IMO, it is impossible for any of us to be truely primitive today. I believe the "primitive" comes from Primitive Archery Magazine, another option for us all. We all try to be as "primitive" as possible but in todays world being truely primitive is impossible for modern man.
  When I got into "primitive" archery my goal was to be as simple as possible but still be effective for hunting and I think I am on my way there. 

[Bryce]

Primitive ppl where not always on the hunt for food, as modern people think today.
They ate pretty well and had more down time than you think. If everyone did there part things where fine.(unless hit with drought or famine) But there is a time and a place for everything. Even making a fancy bow. If you think that "good looking" bows didn't exist in 'primitive' times.... Well your wrong. I have been to countless museums and seen some bows that blow my mind. Especially the ones here on the west coast of Oregon.
Perfectly crafted and painted, some have neatly burned in designs. Each color and shape holds a meaning in the physical and spiritual world. Even taking the time to reflex 90deg tips.
Taking to time to paint a canoe. Why? Bc you have the time and would like to please the ancestors.
Painting the bow to maybe give it spiritual power? Idk or maybe just bc they felt like it.
Some ppl build nice fancy looking/functioning bows and some don't. That's just how it is. Same then as it is now.
Maybe they didn't have steel but copper makes a usable tool.

The art produced by some of these cultures are way sophisticated, and imaginative, combined with the social moieties has me believing that

Non of these tools look primitive to me. Yet they are considered so.







PortlandArtMuseum.pdf.




We all have a depictions of 'primitive'

To me, made from all natural materials. The bow in its own merit can be considered primitive.

-Pinecone.

[richardzane]

good point Bryce,
"primitive" the way we use it does not necessarily mean crude or without beauty or of little value.
MANY things our ancestors made with their hands were time consuming and valued highly.
your pictures illustrate it. I took lots of pictures in Auckland NZ of the amazing artwork of ancient Maori,
often wood carvings using stone tools like this hand carved canoe prow.

But it seems in any time frame there WERE  "craftsmen" who were not as skilled or gifted as others
and there's plenty of examples of "crude" work in museum collections as well...kept in archival basements!

[Bryce]

Yes! Infact to even view some of the bows  that aren't on display you have to be granted permission and supervised. They don't have the good stuff on display most of the time.

[richardzane]

the simplest things... a wrapped gourd water bottle  or a wicked fighting "sword" made by tying on sharks teeth.
all done with care and precision, for function and use.

[Hrothgar]

Thanks for the pictures guys. As detailed and intricate as some of these pieces are certainly shows that old or ancient isn't necessarily primitive, and certainly isn't crude or common.

[Newindian]

It seems to me that we are relating primitive strictly to native Americans, what about the old world who had bronze, iron, steel (I would debate metal not being a natural material) we have hundreds of years of their work that nobody Seems to be considering as primitive.

[Bryce]

There is stuff from New Zealand up there bud.
It's not just North America. But those pieces of knowledge and history are just easier to come by sense we live here.

[Newindian]

There is stuff from New Zealand up there bud.

Realized that right after I posted
But my point remains that when people say that stone tools are a necessity/part of primitive they are also saying that much older artifacts are not primitive. I'd bet you Odysseus bow wasn't with stone.

[darodalaf]

Primitive just means first or earliest. The first or earliest way of doing things could be more complex or intricate than later ways.

It certainly doesn't mean crude or simple, though people are conditioned to understand the word that way.

In terms of bow and bow making technology, I consider self bows (or maybe simple backed bows) to be primitive since that was the form of the first bows. Where bow -making- is concerned, the use of metal tools is a relatively recent technology in both the New and Old World. The use of metal tools may be ancient, but they're not primitive by the definition of the word. Only in the Near East (and possibly Asia?) are the origins of archery and availability of metal tools even remotely close together on the timeline. 

Anyway, that's my introduction on this forum. Hope I didn't offend anyone. Nice to be here!

[Del the cat]

Primitive ppl where not always on the hunt for food, as modern people think today.
They ate pretty well and had more down time than you think. If everyone did there part things where fine.(unless hit with drought or famine) But there is a time and a place for everything. Even making a fancy bow. If you think that "good looking" bows didn't exist in 'primitive' times.... Well your wrong. I have been to countless museums and seen some bows that blow my mind. Especially the ones here on the west coast of Oregon.
Perfectly crafted and painted, some have neatly burned in designs. Each color and shape holds a meaning in the physical and spiritual world. Even taking the time to reflex 90deg tips.
Taking to time to paint a canoe. Why? Bc you have the time and would like to please the ancestors.
Painting the bow to maybe give it spiritual power? Idk or maybe just bc they felt like it.
Some ppl build nice fancy looking/functioning bows and some don't. That's just how it is. Same then as it is now.
Maybe they didn't have steel but copper makes a usable tool.

The art produced by some of these cultures are way sophisticated, and imaginative, combined with the social moieties has me believing that

Non of these tools look primitive to me. Yet they are considered so.

We all have a depictions of 'primitive'

To me, made from all natural materials. The bow in its own merit can be considered primitive.

-Pinecone.

Great post Piney Some gorgeous stuff there.
Me & Mrs Cat went to see the Ice Age Art exhibition at the Brit' Mus' a few weeks back... excellent.
Del

[Joec123able]

It seems to me that we are relating primitive strictly to native Americans, what about the old world who had bronze, iron, steel (I would debate metal not being a natural material) we have hundreds of years of their work that nobody Seems to be considering as primitive.

.

Metal is a natural material there's no debate