What Is Primitive REALLY ?

[Jodocus]

Real primitive stuff has a wide range between pragmatic and representational, and this is especially true of weapons. But I often find it striking how even everyday objects are  carefully decorated. Look at the aurignacian finds, it's present from as far back as we can see.

I imagine they just sat around the fire chatting, singing, manufacturing stuff, teching each other techniques most every evening. Ample time.

But they certainly did their best to make it look high tech!

[Dane]

There are many definitions of the word primitive. One means original, another is primal, another is crude, another is simple, another is elemental, another is self taught, another is tribal. I am not sure it matters one way or another. Stone age guys were working with state of the art tools and techniques. Iron age people were working with state of the art tools and techniques. Native Americans before and after first contact were working with state of the art tools and techniques. Otzi's axe was very advanced, and perhaps part of the reason he was murdered.

I think we trick ourselves by thinking we are on the cutting edge of primitive, or maybe we really are. I think looking backward for inspiration and state of mind, or maybe a philosophy, is more appropriate. And our entire society will be considered primitive or archaic 100 or 1,000 or 100,000 years from now.

[twisted hickory]

Well, the bows that we make are "primitive" compared to what passes for archery gear now a days.

Absolutely! I went shooting at a local indoor range with my bows and the guys looked at my bows and me like I was an Indian who just walked out of the bush   It was amusing
Greg

[Horse Thief Killer]

I only use a tomahawk, knive, and a horse rasp to make my bows. It is as primitive as my skills allow. One who can make them with only stone is an expert bowyer in my opinion. I think people have different styles, likes and dislikes. I feel that if it is made from primitive materials such as wood, horn, backings such as sinew or natural products. The Souix tribe did have arrow rests. Maybe not as wide or deep but they did.

[mikekeswick]

The way I see it is we haven't changed our base instincts one little bit from our ancestors times. Sure we have different influences that take us in certain ways now but we are still the same. What we all are doing in one way or another is harking back to a 'simpler' time. The level at which we do so is up to the individual. Bending wood and shooting sticks at things is fun now like it was 1000, 10,000 etc years ago 
A hunting method, that is as pure as is it gets, in a time before bows, atl atl's etc was to run your prey down. This method is on the verge of dying out completely. Animals like deer are limited when running to one breath per stride with the leg action working the lungs like a set of bellows. If you can keep a deer running for long enough it's body temperature will rise and keep rising until it has to collapse and your tea is sat there in front of you. We on the other hand can sweat and breathe at a high enough rate to keep cool and of course the real clincher is that we can can water with us. Of course great fitness and supreme tracking ability are essential.
I regale the above story because what do you think man thought when somebody invented the first bow......umm maybe I don't have to run after my deer anymore. Do you think they sat round the fire saying 'well that new bow thing is a bit advanced for me I think i'll carry on running'? My guess is that they had a similar discussion to this one! Our problem is that we have gone too far, in many respects, with 'technology'. Hopefully the balance between us and the world will sort it's self out.

[Weylin]

I'd like to point out what I see as an important nuance. I see some of us using the argument that people have always used the best technology that they had available to them and that we are no different. But I think there is a fundamental difference between a group transitioning between the atlatl and the bow and our culture transitioning between the wooden bow and the compound bow. And I think that difference explains why we are interested in using a wooden bow when we could just as easily use a compound bow.

Our culture may collectively possess the capacity to create a compound bow in a factory but that is not a capacity that we as individuals can posses. We are just handed a product to use. I can't speak for everyone but I think it's safe to assume that many of us are into wooden bows because it's a technology that we can own. It's something that we can make with our own two hands and create a product that is truly ours. We can fix it we can replace it, and we've put our hearts and souls into it. The ancient man could say that about any technology that he was using, new or old. That remained a constant. We have had something important taken away from us in our world of "products" and I think part of our interest in this craft is an attempt to reclaim that legacy that is a deep part of our human nature. Whether we use a rock or a bandsaw I think we're all trying to scratch the same itch.

[Joec123able]

I'd like to point out what I see as an important nuance. I see some of us using the argument that people have always used the best technology that they had available to them and that we are no different. But I think there is a fundamental difference between a group transitioning between the atlatl and the bow and our culture transitioning between the wooden bow and the compound bow. And I think that difference explains why we are interested in using a wooden bow when we could just as easily use a compound bow.

Our culture may collectively possess the capacity to create a compound bow in a factory but that is not a capacity that we as individuals can posses. We are just handed a product to use. I can't speak for everyone but I think it's safe to assume that many of us are into wooden bows because it's a technology that we can own. It's something that we can make with our own two hands and create a product that is truly ours. We can fix it we can replace it, and we've put our hearts and souls into it. The ancient man could say that about any technology that he was using, new or old. That remained a constant. We have had something important taken away from us in our world of "products" and I think part of our interest in this craft is an attempt to reclaim that legacy that is a deep part of our human nature. Whether we use a rock or a bandsaw I think we're all trying to scratch the same itch.

I think you said it right there !

[George Tsoukalas]

To me primitive is pre contact, at least here in the US. The tools you use influence design of the bow. For example,  it's hard or even impossible  to use primitive tools and obtain a flat bellied design. Belly has to be slightly  rounded for the tool to work efficiently. I've made arrows with stone tools and a bow. I like steel tools Jawge

[richardzane]

Weylin made some good points,  (well actually i'm not sure i've seen his knapping )
when we make our own things we're "closer" to them, AND we're also one step less dependent on an industrial $ driven system .
in felling one tree:
1000s of people are required to manufacture a chainsaw, more needed to have it delivered into our hands. 1000s of people we're dependent on.
the thing cuts through wood like butter , seems almost magical, its easy, and saves a heck of a lot of time and MY energy. we like it!
at the other extreme,
a person makes a 3/4 groove stone axe from scratch and fells a tree...alone.
the energy expended in EACH situation is a lot...but only ONE has proved over thousands of years to be sustainable .
and only one is evidence of a truly independent and free individual.

I think most of us like our cool tools but none of us really like being dependent on any system.
so we like to know HOW to be able to do it without the industrial system (when there are no more chains for our chainsaw )

[Onebowonder]

Interesting discussion.  I knap stone points, ...but I do it with copper tools.  My brother uses 'ABO' tools to make his points.  I've done some abo work, but prefer my copper tools.  He has tried copper, but feels better about his abo tools.  They look the largely same at the end.  Are mine different?  yes, somewhat, but many things about he and I are different.  Are they in someway less?  hmmm... I don't think so.  Do they lack some spiritual factor that his have?   maybe (idk)  Can the deer tell the difference?  None have ever complained!

OneBow

[Forresterwoods]

“If God had meant for us to use fiberglass bows, He would have made fiberglass trees”.
Kevin Forrester

[dmenzies1950]

It's interesting how differently the state department of fish and game defines primitive as opposed to what we think of as primitive. Bows of any type are defined as primitive! So you can go hunting with a bow that is not really a bow shooting an arrow that is not really an arrow, and still be defined as a, primitive weapon"! One traditional archer defined the wheel bow as a, "projectile launching device"! It's legal to hunt with in all 50 states "primitive weapons" season". Go figure!               Dale

[Ed Brooks]

Primitive for me is about the hunt and equipment used for the kill. I want to hunt with all home made items. 43# yew bow. sinew string, shoot shaft arrows, sinew wrapped fetching. I have not mastered stone yet so I traded sinew for stone points(trades legal for this in my mind). Brain tanned some deer hide to make a quiver. I have found I can't do one without having to learn the rest.
I did use steal tools and the internet. (thanks for all the great advice / pics BTW) will have to see if the Washington Fish and Game Department will trade sinew for my tags..LOL Happy Hunting.

[mikekeswick]

Just out of interest has anyone on here ever tried persistance hunting? eg. running a deer down on foot.

[TRACY]

Just out of interest has anyone on here ever tried persistance hunting? eg. running a deer down on foot.

Too fat and old for that



Tracy