Author Topic: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.  (Read 4131 times)

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Offline Tetsuoh

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New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« on: March 25, 2013, 10:29:34 am »
I've been reading through the forums and have learned quite a lot on here and through other research.

That said, I still have some questions.

I know of a rather large amount of materials that can make good shafts.
But, what materials do all think is THE best that you've worked with?
This is more an opinion question than anything, but I like to get input before starting projects, so yeah.

Fletching Feathers, really simple here - are there any feathers that anyone suggests other than turkey or goose?
I know others can work, but are there any others you suggest?

Once again, as with my other topics, thank you to anyone who takes the time to read this.
~Tet
"In a world full of green, you'd be surprised how many want to see it burn. In a world full of cold grey, you'd be ashamed to see how many remember the green."

Offline PrimitiveTim

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2013, 10:35:10 am »
Here's a helpful thread.  Use every type of shaft you can get your hands on.  You'll find your preference.
Florida to Kwajalein to Turkey and back in Florida again.  Good to be home but man was that an adventure!

Offline Pat B

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2013, 10:53:30 am »
Cane makes a very good, durable arrow and I have some of the best(Hill Cane) growing along my driveway. I prefer sourwood shoots for arrows even though I have hill cane here. It is all a matter of preference.   Last year Stringstretcher(Charlie) sent me some poplar shafts he doweled and I really like them too. There are so many different shaft materials out there that make great arrows it has to be about what you like best or whatever you have available.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline Tetsuoh

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 11:22:16 am »
My problem atm is that its snowing and too cold for me outside.

I'm being antsy to start and I'm currently using this to see if materials have been spotted in out area.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/

And, well prospects of materials I had hoped to try are dwindling fast.

I'm really hoping its not as accurate as it could be and there's multiflora nearby at least.

EDIT:
OKAY - Only dumb question is one that isn't asked, right?
I gotta ask - http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,38687.0.html - Huh?
I understand most of these terms and there meaning in the application of arrow making - its all just an attempt to balance the arrow better.
But is a grain weight that important? I can see wanting all your arrows at the same weight and length, but can a grain weight affect the shot that drastically depending on the bow's pull?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 11:50:41 am by Tetsuoh »
"In a world full of green, you'd be surprised how many want to see it burn. In a world full of cold grey, you'd be ashamed to see how many remember the green."

Offline crooketarrow

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2013, 12:00:12 pm »
  Wait for spring no hurry you have the rest of your life. I've learned to slowwwwwwww downnnnnnnnnnnn. With I finish something it a lot more gratifying.
  For me it's DIFFERNTY ALTERNET DOG WOOD, I only use turkey or goose primaries.
   When it like that here I have tons of indoor things I do.
  I like to start out with my shoots to big and plane and sand to what I need. This way you take out all the little curves to can't get out by straight. I use to temper my arrows but can see no difference it you let your shoots season a couple years. With most shoots the old ,longer there seasoned the better they stay straight.
  The secede it to straight well then bundle  I use duck tape in 4 places then after  6o r 8 months go back a re tape they srink as the dry out. So I keep the bundled tight.After 6 ,8 months there usually as small as there going to get. So you only have to re tape once.
  I've even made the intire shafts then bundled and let season. Then after seasoned you only have to do a little straighting before you Fletch.
DEAD IS DEAD NO MATTER HOW FAST YOUR ARROW GETS THERE
20 YEARS OF DOING 20 YEARS OF LEARNING 20 YEARS OF TEACHING

Offline PAHunter

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2013, 01:19:29 pm »
I'm quite new to this but the bamboo at gardening stores can make very strong arrows and give you something to play with while your cut wood dries.  BTW I put my cut wood in a hot box after it dried for a few months to speed things up.  I've picked a ton of sticks and bushes for arrows from the wood where I hunt.  I don't have a clue what most are but the experimentation is fun to me.  good luck!
Thanks,
Rob - Wexford, PA

"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe". - Abe Lincoln

Offline Tetsuoh

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2013, 10:56:13 pm »

A new general question for you all.

What size growth do recommend gathering?
IE 3/8" for this wood shoot etc etc.

And following that, would it be appropriate to carry a measurement tool with me?

"In a world full of green, you'd be surprised how many want to see it burn. In a world full of cold grey, you'd be ashamed to see how many remember the green."

Offline PrimitiveTim

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2013, 11:08:34 pm »
For cane a lot of guys carry an open end wrench at whatever size they like and use that to measure.
Florida to Kwajalein to Turkey and back in Florida again.  Good to be home but man was that an adventure!

Offline Pat B

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2013, 11:54:28 pm »
3/8" at the big end. Once the shoot(or cane) dries out and the bark is removed(from the shoot) it will be closer to 11/32" or slightly smaller. The cane in the garden centers will already be dry. I think they come in 4' lengths so you can pick your shaft out of the best section.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline Thesquirrelslinger

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2013, 08:15:10 pm »
3/8" at the big end. Once the shoot(or cane) dries out and the bark is removed(from the shoot) it will be closer to 11/32" or slightly smaller. The cane in the garden centers will already be dry. I think they come in 4' lengths so you can pick your shaft out of the best section.
If you have a short(e.g 26 inches) draw length, just cut the canes in half, straighten, and make 4 inch forshafts and nocks:)
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Offline twisted hickory

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 10:47:04 pm »
I've been reading through the forums and have learned quite a lot on here and through other research.

That said, I still have some questions.

I know of a rather large amount of materials that can make good shafts.
But, what materials do all think is THE best that you've worked with?
This is more an opinion question than anything, but I like to get input before starting projects, so yeah.

Fletching Feathers, really simple here - are there any feathers that anyone suggests other than turkey or goose?
I know others can work, but are there any others you suggest?

Once again, as with my other topics, thank you to anyone who takes the time to read this.
~Tet
Red osier works quite well. I don't spine my shafts and have had good sucess by keeping my shafts around 10-12 grains per pound weight with a 29 inch arrow bop and 125 gr points w 5.50 left helical feathers. They seem to fly right where I look. They are a bit heavier than cedar but are much more durable to rocks and trees. Pick second year shoots that have small branches near the top. If the bases are close to size of your thumb when green you are close. Mine end up with very slight taper. I use small end for nock. This is what works for me and my 51 lb long bow. I usually match them to within 5 grains of one another. If you pick large shoots they seem to be straighter and a little more dense.
Greg

Offline Tetsuoh

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2013, 03:04:47 am »
okay - remember I'm new.

I asked about grain weights and all that but as yet have not found out exactly what all that means.

Mind you I haven't looked all that hard just yet, I've been distracted for a couple days so I didn't have the time yet.
"In a world full of green, you'd be surprised how many want to see it burn. In a world full of cold grey, you'd be ashamed to see how many remember the green."

Offline sleek

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Re: New to Arrow making, and have some questions.
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2013, 03:53:19 am »
Grain weight....

How much an arrow weighs does two main things to its flight. The most simple thing it does is it affects how fast the arrow will travel once shot. Lighter arrows travel faster ( up to a point... diminishing returns at a point ).  That was the simple part to explain. The hard part gets its own paragraph.

Its difficult for me to explain, but it is a simple thing. Grain affects the arrows flight depending on where the grains are placed. If the spine ( how stiff the arrow is ) of an arrow is good for a 50lb pull bow with a 125 grain arrow head, and you take that head and replace it with a 200 grain head, your arrow will be underspined ( too weak ). Why the difference? The arrow has one job, To push the head to the target. If the head weighs to much, the shaft, under sudden acceleration of the bow, will flex too much as the head will want to stay still ( inertia ). If the shaft flexes to much, the flight will be a bad one and the arrow will land to the right ( somebody correct me if I am wrong here ) of the mark. Likewise, if the arrow head is too light in grains, the shaft will not flex enough in flight and it will land to the left of its mark. ( Center shot bows are more forgiving. ) That helps ( I hope ) explain the affects of grain on flight.

It also affects penetration. This is a hotly debated topic by many on just how much it is affected, but I dont know of any who say it isnt at all. A heavier arrow travels slower out the same bow than a lighter arrow. Some say they want the arrow in the target faster, others want it in there deeper. It boils down to a personal preference honestly. But the science behind it is inertia again. More weight, more penetration. To give you an extreme example,  look at a ping pong ball and a rock of equal size. Rock travels 100 mph, Ping pong ball, 200. Please, you wanna throw one at me, I will take the ping pong ball please. The biggest argument on this issue is where to draw the line. I personally hate the 10grains per pound of arrow weight everybody likes to cite. I think it is more than needed. I prefer closer to 7. I like my arrow to travel fast, but there is still plenty of energy for penetration. Of course, the deer doesn't care how fast the arrow hit, dead is dead, no matter how fast the arrow flies.

Last part on this also gets its own paragraph, only because the one above is really longer than I like to read myself. Lets look briefly at energy distribution on impact. Arrow flex when shot. We all know that. But they flex even more on impact. Its a reversal of the shot. On release, the head wants to stay still, and the shaft bends on release pushing it away. On impact the head wants to slow down, but the tail of the shaft wants to keep moving, so it again bends. Only this time, that bending is wasted energy. You want as much of that shaft ( and its energy ) in line with the line of penetration. You can only stiffen the spine so much before you are no longer accurate, or just have crappy flight ( which incidentally means often times, an arrow that strikes the target at an angle, again, you want energy in line with the line of penetration ). So, the answer is to give as little weight at the tail of the shaft as possible, and as much forward as possible. You do this by tapering your shaft. Narrow end get the nock, getting wider ( pyramid style ) to the head, which gets the fat end. That way, on impact, very little energy ( E=M( mass ) x A ( acceleration, in this case, deceleration )) is wasted. With less mass in the tail of the shaft, you have less energy wasted, and more energy going into the penetration.  That tail will whip allot less on impact also, which the tail whipping itself is wasted energy.

So as a recap to this book I just wrote ( I hope its was at least as informative as it was dull ) you want the spine stiff enough for the bows poundage AND the arrow head weight. You want your total arrow weight to be enough to carry the energy of the bow fast enough to suit you and maintain effective penetration. And I just explained my reason for my bias towards tapered shafts. But again, its a preference, regular dowel shafts work great too.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 03:58:50 am by sleek »
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