Trilam Warbow Hickory/Greenheart/Hickory 125-130lbs@32"

[Prarie Bowyer]

I haven't read everything above.

My thoughts is that Hickory is an excelent wood. 

I like the tri lam design for a few reasons.  A major one is that it is efficient use of wood.  Also it can be pretty.  It takes more technical plannig in the early design and layout stages.

The concept is great because you gain alot of strength from the gluelines which helps reduce limb weight.


I find trilam ELB's difficult to make and still get the right look because of the above.

[mikekeswick]

I haven't read everything above.

My thoughts is that Hickory is an excelent wood. 

I like the tri lam design for a few reasons.  A major one is that it is efficient use of wood.  Also it can be pretty.  It takes more technical plannig in the early design and layout stages.

The concept is great because you gain alot of strength from the gluelines which helps reduce limb weight.


I find trilam ELB's difficult to make and still get the right look because of the above.

Gluelines do not affect stiffness. The concept is really nothing more than adding a pretty colour!.....at least the way most folks do things.
For a tri-lam elb then go for a 1/4 thick hickory backing a core of 1/16th to 1/8th then adda belly. 7/8ths thick at the handle with any dense wood for upto 60 lbs.

[toomanyknots]

I haven't read everything above.

My thoughts is that Hickory is an excelent wood. 

I like the tri lam design for a few reasons.  A major one is that it is efficient use of wood.  Also it can be pretty.  It takes more technical plannig in the early design and layout stages.

The concept is great because you gain alot of strength from the gluelines which helps reduce limb weight.


I find trilam ELB's difficult to make and still get the right look because of the above.

Gluelines do not affect stiffness. The concept is really nothing more than adding a pretty colour!.....at least the way most folks do things.
For a tri-lam elb then go for a 1/4 thick hickory backing a core of 1/16th to 1/8th then adda belly. 7/8ths thick at the handle with any dense wood for upto 60 lbs.

I have also heard from other bowyers that the glue lines/laminates add stiffness, which can reduce limb mass in bows. Mike, can you explain why it is that this is said to be, and why it is not true? I honestly would like to know, and honestly haven't wrapped my head around that yet. If it is not true, than I cannot see any other benefit from adding a strip of ipe between hickory and osage. Osage and ipe are both dense woods that are great in compression. You often see them being used as cores, as well as bellys. I think this is funny, as you could easily switch them around, for what I would think would have to be the same effect? Logically, I would think the best use of a core would be a light but dependable and strong wood, that would reduce the weight of the limbs, but provide a good space between the outer back and belly, which are under the most stresses. I have always thought that this was the main concept in hornbow construction, seeing as lighter woods like mulberry were favored alot of the time, as well as maple. I have also heard that there is little reason to go over an eighth of an inch thick with a hickory backing? It seems to me, when researching laminate elb construction, there can be alot of conflicting information out there, and not a ton of thorough explanation. My favorite sources of info so far have been old out of print books found online.

[nineworlds9]

So this company in NL sounds like a..Dutch Rudderbows.  LOL hahaha.  Their methods sound similar, the planing of lams, the glue joints.  Functional bows no doubt.

[Prarie Bowyer]

Agree to dissagree about disagreeing for disagreeing sake Mike Schwick.

1) I've read it in literature printed by far better Bowyers than myself.
2) the folks at Rudder bows who were WAY instrumental in gettingme started in this madness stated as much.
3) I've experienced. 

But don't take my word for it.    Take three pieces of wood 1/8" thick by some length and bend them as a bundle then glue them togeather and bend them again.

Debate solved.

[Prarie Bowyer]

Oh, BTW there is connection between Faire Bow and Rudder Bows.

Commercialization is not a bad thing . . . exactly. I have no problem with a guy making a standard range of products to serve a market demand.  The standardizing helps with throughput, efficient use of materials and keeping price down which increases sales.  Any market will have products of all different price ranges and qualities.  Not every boater can afford or wants a Chriss Craft.

Others are Richard Head and Bickerstaff. 

Just what is wrong with a guy, especially in the Netherlands with their taxes, making a living at his craft however he needs to? Isn't that what free markets and innovation are all about?  Sure we wouldn't be against that (Cough~ socialist liberal) 


Look at Konrad Voegelle.  This guy only makes two kinds of bows though they come in bamboo backed or self bows.  That is it.  That is what he knows works and he can confidantly make with some modicome of efficiency. 

[Del the cat]

But don't take my word for it.    Take three pieces of wood 1/8" thick by some length and bend them as a bundle then glue them togeather and bend them again.

Debate solved.

WALOOB!
Clamp 'em together by any method, nails, bolts, rivets. even string if the surfaces are prepared correctly. And they will be stiffer.
It's the change in dimension that makes it stiffer. Not the glue.
The fair comparison is glue 3 strips of 1/8" together and compare it with a piece of 3/8" solid timber unglued.
I sincerely hope you were joking (presumably the " " means you were).
Sorry if this post was unecessary, but there I wouldn't want some innocent newbie taking you seriously.
Del

[Ian.]

I was very tempted to get some doubled sided tape and see if it holds a lam together, not for any bending test just to see what happens.

[nineworlds9]

No one got my Dutch rudder joke. Or they stayed silent.  No worries, ill keep it clean from henceforth.  Pleased to report again today my rudder warbow still hasn't broken after all I've done to it.  We shall see....

[toomanyknots]

I haven't read everything above.

My thoughts is that Hickory is an excelent wood. 

I like the tri lam design for a few reasons.  A major one is that it is efficient use of wood.  Also it can be pretty.  It takes more technical plannig in the early design and layout stages.

The concept is great because you gain alot of strength from the gluelines which helps reduce limb weight.


I find trilam ELB's difficult to make and still get the right look because of the above.

Gluelines do not affect stiffness. The concept is really nothing more than adding a pretty colour!.....at least the way most folks do things.
For a tri-lam elb then go for a 1/4 thick hickory backing a core of 1/16th to 1/8th then adda belly. 7/8ths thick at the handle with any dense wood for upto 60 lbs.

I have also heard from other bowyers that the glue lines/laminates add stiffness, which can reduce limb mass in bows. Mike, can you explain why it is that this is said to be, and why it is not true? I honestly would like to know, and honestly haven't wrapped my head around that yet. If it is not true, than I cannot see any other benefit from adding a strip of ipe between hickory and osage. Osage and ipe are both dense woods that are great in compression. You often see them being used as cores, as well as bellys. I think this is funny, as you could easily switch them around, for what I would think would have to be the same effect? Logically, I would think the best use of a core would be a light but dependable and strong wood, that would reduce the weight of the limbs, but provide a good space between the outer back and belly, which are under the most stresses. I have always thought that this was the main concept in hornbow construction, seeing as lighter woods like mulberry were favored alot of the time, as well as maple. I have also heard that there is little reason to go over an eighth of an inch thick with a hickory backing? It seems to me, when researching laminate elb construction, there can be alot of conflicting information out there, and not a ton of thorough explanation. My favorite sources of info so far have been old out of print books found online.

Just thought I would resurrect this thread, as I never got a answer regarding glue lines adding stiffness? (unless it was a pm that I forgot about,  lol )

[AndiE]

Hi

The Greenheart that Fairbow is selling is Ipe. So the warbow is Hickory/Ipe/Hickory.

Greetings
Andi

[mikekeswick]

Toomanyknots - i'm happy to tell anyone all I know about making elb's.  after all it won't take too long.....
Gluelines in themselves add no real stiffness. The glueline is very thin and although most glues are stiff when dry they are forming a tiny percentage of the total thickness therefore have a tiny affect on the stiffness. If I understood what Prairiebowyer said then 3 x 1/8th thick lams aren't very stiff by themselves when un-glued yet they become a lot stiffer when glued together...well of course they do they are now 3 times thicker! That's not the gluelines it's the huge change in thickness.
Regarding reducing limb mass because of adding gluelines - most glues are pretty darn dense so adding more glue will actually raise the physical weight.
I personally don't use heavy dense woods for cores unless somebody specifically wants a certain combination. My favourite core wood is maple due to it's medium density and fantastic gluing properties and it's diffuse porous.
I have found that just shy of 1/4 hickory backing works best will dense tropicals like ipe. This is after making a few hundered of them with every thickness of backing tried...but i'm still not 100% sure why.
The core in a hornbow isn't really to lower limb weight but to work as a) A form to glue the horn to b) give the limbs the correct shape as it's stiffer than horn or sinew c) allow the shaping of the kasans/tips etc. Maple is the best wood for hornbow cores as well!
The one way of making gluelines 'work' is the principle of perry reflexing. I'm still experimenting with gluing up 2 lams at a time and adding reflex with each glue-up...but it's a bit of a pain. End-grain cores are another avenue with potential but i'll leave that upto you to figure out. 

[adb]

Making tri-lam ELBs (my speciality) allows me to make more bows with less wood. The glue lines do not add stiffness per say. Remember, wood which is twice as wide is twice as strong, but wood which is twice as thick is eight times as strong.

The glue I use (TB3) happens at the molecular level. A good glue line shouldn't be a line at all... it should just look like the wood is touching each other. Good glue lines are all about proper wood surface prep, and consistent clamping pressure.
 
Gluing multiple layers mostly allows me to optimize the wood combinations and thicknesses. Plus, it provides the bonus of looking nice using wood colors with contrast. What mikekeswick has said above is very correct. Maple is excellent bow wood... one of my favourites. I do tend to use belly type compressive woods for my cores, but I have also used tension strong woods like bamboo as well.

There is also some physics going on at glue lines, which I don't fully understand.  Right at the glue line itself is a neutral plane, where there is neither tension nor compression forces. If you have a tri-lam, there are two neutral planes, and I'm not sure if this is better than one with a backed bow. Something to research, I suppose. I have spoken with and spent time with some very knowledgeable bowyers like Pip Bickerstaffe in the UK, and there must be something to his willingness to make nothing but multiple layered ELBs, otherwise he wouldn't bother with the extra work.

[toomanyknots]

Thank you Mike and Abd for the thorough replies, I appreciate it,  .