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Author Topic: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?  (Read 9841 times)

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Offline Carson (CMB)

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Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« on: February 12, 2013, 09:18:13 pm »
Forgewood was the trade name that Bill Sweetland gave to his compressed Port Orford cedar shafts.  I won't go into the awesome details of Bill's process for making the forgewood arrow, but basically he took a top-tier arrow wood and made it even better by manipulating it with steam heat and hydraulic pressure.  I had a thought that maybe this approach could be applied to bow-wood much in the way heat-treating is utilized.  Can heat and pressure, make good bow wood better?  Can it make marginal bow-wood into excellent bow wood?  I just want to throw this vague question about compression treating wood in order to change its properties out there to hear others thoughts on possibilities, potentialities, practicalities, and other p words about compressed bow wood.    ;D ;D
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"The bow is the old first lyre,
the mono chord, the initial rune of fine art
The humanities grew out from archery as a flower from a seed
No sooner did the soft, sweet note of the bow-string charm the ear of genius than music was born, and from music came poetry and painting and..." Maurice Thompso

Offline Keenan

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 09:29:24 pm »
Carson I have some of the sweetland compressed cedars and they are incredible.  Sweetlands shop forman (Bill) Told me that for demos they used to cut the shafts into 2' pieces and drive them into a plywood board for the shows.
 I have some that has regained a little moisture over the years and swelled back to original shape. Amzing to this a half inch bolt can get compressed to about a 1/4 shaft.
 I think the general idea is plausable and whorthy of trying. Similar to boning the back of a bow
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Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 09:34:55 pm »
Very curious Carson.
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Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 09:41:41 pm »
The pressure is the trick. Its easy to come up with pressure for something like a shaft. But a stave or blank is another story......hhhhmmmm.....dang-it! Now Im gonna scheme half the night and wont sleep. 
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Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline Bryce

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 10:37:12 pm »
I'm with yah there pearly now I'm gonna be up all night thinking about this!
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Offline Weylin

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 10:39:18 pm »
I think you volunteered yourself, Carson.  ;)
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Offline Carson (CMB)

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 10:59:15 pm »
Keenan, if I remember right, your stash of Sweetland shafts was quite the score.  There is a video out there that documents the process and how Sweetland came up with the idea.  It is fascinating, and his shop is unbelievable.  I heard he held patents for the modern oil filter.   :o


Pearl, it would definitely be easier to apply to laminations than staves, but there might be some crude methods that allow even pressure to be applied on wood that is not neat and flat in dimensions. 

This going to occupy my mind when I should be thinking of a valentine's day gift for the wife  :-*...I am doomed :-\.

Weylin...you might be right.  As slow as I go though, it might be awhile before we learn anything.  Hopefully Pearl takes off on this and we have some real world results by the end of the night  ;)
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"The bow is the old first lyre,
the mono chord, the initial rune of fine art
The humanities grew out from archery as a flower from a seed
No sooner did the soft, sweet note of the bow-string charm the ear of genius than music was born, and from music came poetry and painting and..." Maurice Thompso

Offline juniper junkie

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 11:02:53 pm »
good to bring this up. I have several of sweetlands arrows and love to shoot them. the process he used was very labor intensive and there were some chemicals involved which couldnt be used today. the compressing of the fibers to the extent he did made the shaft extremely dense and made the shaft a lot stiffer. I have some sweetlands that are over 90# spine and are only 5/16" diameter. as far as making it into a bow wood I dont know. I know that these shafts do seem more brittle when you bend them too far. I also dont think there are many woods that could be condensed as far as the cedar, because of the softness and the large growth rings. I think it could work but would need to be backed with a more tension tolerable wood. give it a try and let us know the results :) I also think bill did build some bows, dave doran at archery past has a oregon archery museum display box with his arrows and bows in them. he would know for sure if he made them.
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Offline Weylin

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2013, 11:04:39 pm »
Just build Lauren a giant stave pressurizing contraption in the living room for valentine's day. I'm sure she'll swoon for that!
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Offline Carson (CMB)

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2013, 11:14:39 pm »
Brilliant, it is like you know her better than I do.  ;)

Dave, I guess I wasn't thinking of limiting the application to POC.  Just what or how could you compression treat bow wood in stave form or laminated, and what woods would benefit, or be most suited to it.
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"The bow is the old first lyre,
the mono chord, the initial rune of fine art
The humanities grew out from archery as a flower from a seed
No sooner did the soft, sweet note of the bow-string charm the ear of genius than music was born, and from music came poetry and painting and..." Maurice Thompso

Offline Keenan

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 11:43:04 pm »
 A press would not be that hard to do. I built and designed all types of machinery for about 45 years. I think it could be done fairly easy, even with character bows. Think of how a constrictor (Python) works.  Just as a form works for a laminated bow The thoery would be similar. Since pressure equalizes inside the tube, the pressure would be fairly consistant except for slight variance of the limps or nodes of character bows.
 The press would need to be consistant with the stave so if it matched the caul form you could heat treat and then go to the pressure form and another heat session.  Now if we can just incorporate the weather enhanced aging station we could whip out perfectly seasoned,and condensed stave for the world of super bows  Sorry for the ramblings of the mind.
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Offline larze_fat

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 12:42:21 am »
What about using those set ups they use to veneer at home with the suction pump and basically one of those space saver bags that are on TV commercials? I dont know  how much psi they produce or how much is need to do what you are thinking but I thought I would throw that idea into the ring.
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Offline Keenan

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 12:47:53 am »
 For enough force ood say it will require hydrolic and not air.  Another option would be to use hard rubbered presure rolls on automatic pressure shocks to conform as it rolled over the wood. The trick would certainly be how to not breaks the firber strands in the process
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Offline juniper junkie

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 12:59:35 am »
we are talking several tons of pressure as well as steam. Keenan, if you can go to dorans and get the video he outlines his process. he also used Penta and other chemicals.  you would have to do it with board type wood so as to get the consistancy. he used tapered boards to achieve the tapered shaft. Carson, I doubt you could get Osage for example to compress much beyond its current state, also with osage you have different wood structures within the wood, early wood and late wood. to oprimize the compression you would need soft wood, IMO. but then again, what do I know, I am just a crazy bowyer....but I am in good company here ;D good subject, this should keep Keenan awake for a few days :D
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Offline soy

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Re: Forgewood: What would Bill Sweetland have done if he were a Bowyer?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2013, 01:04:31 am »
Next thing you know you guys will try to figure out how to put wheels on Bows ;D  >:D  ;D  :-X :-\ sorry about that
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 01:09:50 am by soy »
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Is this bow making a sickness? or the cure...
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