Wapiti - Vine Maple start

[BigWapiti]

So, per another post, I have started my staves.  this one, my first.  Vine maple - Stave is 62" long.  Scraping the bark off was pretty simple - used an old lamp stand I found in my shop as a scraper (didn't realize my wife found that lamp at a G.sale and was excited to fix it up.. oh well).    Anyway, got the bark off but now have more questions.

Pic 1 - just a start - stave rough cut, ends glued, unbarked - rough 62"

Pic 2 - Got it de-barked using a scraper - BUT... does this picture reveal what you mean by going TOO far?  Pic doesn't show it well, but there are some places where its not the smooth top under the bark, but there is some whiter wood showing through where I might have pulled to hard with my scraper....  is this piece gone?

Pic 3 - Would you cut this piece more?  Is it too thick to start?  How thick would you start a piece?  I'm hoping for a 55# bow - 60# if it will do it.

I'm trying to go at this as a scrap, test stave - but I'm falling in love with it already... ugh.


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[Dan in Poulsbo]

Wapati

I have no experience and will offer no thoughts as a result. I am thankful for your post as I am trying to prepare to do the same thing with vinemaple.

Thanks for starting a thread I will follow closely.

Dan

[Robinwho]

I've never done maple bows, because I can't get it where am at, but I would never remove the bark of a stave until it is well  dried, usually I don't touch a stave unless is being drying 1 year or 2.

[a finnish native]

one or two years!  Removing the bark will fast up the drying process I would maybe take some thickness off the stave in order to get it dry as soon as possible. how thick is it now, and how wide? just remember to seal the ends with glue or paint so that it won't split from there.
wait till Gordon weighs in

[Gordon]

BW,

The white wood underneath is probably the back showing through the cambium layer. Vine maple has a thin cambium layer that is a light tan color. When you remove it, the back is almost bleach white. You have WAY more wood there than you need. I usually reduce a VM stave to 1" in thickness along the limbs and leave 1.5" for a handle. If you do this, it will be ready to make a bow in a couple of months - assuming the wood is stored indoors.

Gordon

[BigWapiti]

The white wood underneath is probably the back showing through the cambium layer. Vine maple has a thin cambium layer that is a light tan color. When you remove it, the back is almost bleach white. You have WAY more wood there than you need. I usually reduce a VM stave to 1" in thickness along the limbs and leave 1.5" for a handle. If you do this, it will be ready to make a bow in a couple of months - assuming the wood is stored indoors.

Thanks Gordon -- so, since I went beyond the cambium layer, is that a detriment to the final bow?  Should I go beyond the cambium layer anyway?   I read somewhere that if I let it cure, the cambium layer will dry and end up popping off as I start working the bow; a good thing 'they' say.  True?

Ok then, I'll mark it out and cut down to 1" along the limbs and 1.5 for the handle - following the bow back I presume?

Thanks, -Mike

[Gordon]

I always remove all the cambium. It's probably been too thinned to pop off by itself during tillering. Be careful though, vine maple rings are very thin and easily violated.

Yes, you should follow the back,  but at 1" thickness you don't need to be obsessive because you have plenty of wood. However, following the back will be extremely important as you bring the bow to final dimensions.

[BigWapiti]

BW,
The white wood underneath is probably the back showing through the cambium layer. Vine maple has a thin cambium layer that is a light tan color. When you remove it, the back is almost bleach white. You have WAY more wood there than you need. I usually reduce a VM stave to 1" in thickness along the limbs and leave 1.5" for a handle. If you do this, it will be ready to make a bow in a couple of months - assuming the wood is stored indoors.
Gordon

Gordon, to what width do you cut your VM?  It probably depends on the length of bow?  Can you shed some light on how wide I should rough these staves out to?  Some of them I have drawn out nearly 2", but the others only 1.5"

Too, what lengths do you make your bows?  My staves are running only about 58 - 60" - and then I typically find a knot somewhere near the tips, so I feel I should shorten and cut them to remove the knot.

A friend and I are going to go looking for some more tomorrow - hoping to have a better feel for what to look for now.

Thanks.

[Gordon]

BW,

My vine maple bows usually end up between 1.5" to 1.75" wide. You can make bows with those length staves, but they will need to bend through the handle a bit if you want them to be hunting weight. A stiff handled bow will need to be at least 62" ntn at average draw length/hunting weight. If you want to make longer bows than your staves will allow, you can always splice a couple of short ones together. I don't worry too much about knots - they are part of the woods charm.

Gordon

[BigWapiti]

Hmm, not sure that 'this' knot is a good one to have at the tip.   I have other staves tho.

So, next request - can someone post a picture or two of how to lay out the handle?  Gordon, how do you do the VM handles?  I'm reading, again, different texts - but most fall short of how to layout the handle.

the most common seems to be,

Find and mark the center
Determine top and bottom limbs (what makes this determination btw??)
Measure 1" from center up the top limb
Measure 3" from center down the bottom limb (thats supposed to be your handle)

Measuer 7" from the top of the handle for top fade point
Measure 7" from the bottom of the handle for bottom fade point
Taper to tips from there (how wide at the tips?)

So question is, now that I have a 4" mark for my handle, what now?

Some have said to rough the bow down to 1" thick along the limbs and 1.5" at the handle.
How thick along the non-fade area?

ack.  my head is going in circles.  Just when I thought I had this figured out...

[BigWapiti]

I think i have the handle figured out after looking at an old bear bow I have.  and i have reduced the destance btw the fade and handle to 2.5" after looking at more bows.  I found this post by Gordon to have helped (Wow. Nice bow Gordon!)
http://p081.ezboard.com/vine-maple-selfbow/fpaleoplanet69529frm66.showMessage?topicID=453.topic

But still, the question is, what makes you decide what end to use for the top or bottom limb?  Is the trunk end better for one or the other?  does it matter?

Hmm, too, when you cut your staves, how close to the ground can you use for the stave?  that is, should one not use say, the bottom foot of the tree/bush?  Just a curiousity.

What a chore it is to find a good stave - once you get the bark off, you find the true character.... or its pain points.  Interesting stuff.  is it often this frustrating, or does it at some point become less so.... ?  grin.

Also, when does the soreness in one's neck go away?    wow, this is work!  fun, but work! 

[jkekoni]

I tought that Wapiti<Cervus canadensis> do not work as self bow, but make wonderfull backing.

I have not used them, but I am currently making a bow backed with a close relative<Cervus elaphus>.

BTW: Available from higlandhorn.com

[Gordon]

Yea, that was a really nice bow while it lasted. The highly stressed design I employed proved too much for vine maple and it eventually had a compression failure. That's one thing you need to be aware of - vine maple has fabulous tension strength, but mediocre compression. My choice of which end is top/bottom depends on how the wood lays out relative to where the string will bisect the handle, where certain knots will be located, etc. - I've never concerned myself with which end was closest to the ground.

I sometimes cut my wood close to the ground because the trunk has a tendancy to curve toward the sky at this point. That creates a naturally reflexed tip if you decide to use it. Vine maple can be frustrating if you try to force it. I used to be obsessive about getting the kinks out , evening the reflex in each limb and/or tip, etc. Now I tend to do as little extra work as possible and let the wood tell me what it wants to be and the wood and I seem a lot happier for it.

[BigWapiti]

Yea, that was a really nice bow while it lasted. The highly stressed design I employed proved too much for vine maple and it eventually had a compression failure. That's one thing you need to be aware of - vine maple has fabulous tension strength, but mediocre compression. My choice of which end is top/bottom depends on how the wood lays out relative to where the string will bisect the handle, where certain knots will be located, etc. - I've never concerned myself with which end was closest to the ground.

Oh, dang!  I think I'd still be in mourning!  This is turning out to be a lot of work!  I was thinking at the start, that well, I'm just going to go into this realizing that some are going to break.... hours of bench work, if it breaks I'm not sure I'll be so positive...

Mind my asking for definitions here?   "highly stressed design", "tension strength" and "Compression failure"  How did you build it to be a 'highly stressed design' ?   I already loaned out my Bible v1 book, so can't look these up.  help?

Vine maple can be frustrating if you try to force it. I used to be obsessive about getting the kinks out , evening the reflex in each limb and/or tip, etc. Now I tend to do as little extra work as possible and let the wood tell me what it wants to be and the wood and I seem a lot happier for it.

Hmm, I'm really wanting to understand this statement too.  So, when tillering you don't go for an even bend?  Or am I misunderstanding? 

What is it your looking for in letting the wood tell you what it wants?  Does this mean you don't try to steam it or force bend it straight?

Lots of questions....  but as I start chipping away, and reading your posts, I'm slowly but surely picking this up... I think. 

[BigWapiti]

Think i'm in for trouble with these two knots near the tip?

And below are some pics of the very roughed out renditions...  looking at this, i'm ... not ...quite... sure I have this figured out just yet.   

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