Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...

[H Rhodes]

Dang it!  I turn my back for just a little bit and you folks are all off into this age old bowyer debate .....  right down to building poplar bows!!
 I think this site has got more great people on it than any place on the internet.  Seriously, you guys are to be commended for treating each other with politeness and seeming to always take the high road and treating each other with respect.   "osage ...an inferior bow wood"...  whew!, that would have lit the fuse!!  Good discussion - I really enjoyed it. 

[ionicmuffin]

i think that making the lever bows is much easier than making a very carefully tillered wooden recurve like the modern ones. thus you do see more made that way, it has been tested, and more people can say that it makes a bow faster to have narrow tips because the tips have less air resistance. It will gain only a few fps, but it is faster, it also has less overall mass at the tips, allowing them to accelerate faster, and on top of that, it reduces hand shock, thus it would be more popular to have something faster by a bit and yet still accurate. If you really want to get into theory then we should start taking this to a level of physics so we can actually see whats going on. if we had several test bows of different styles you could find out whats going on and why it is effective.

[RyanY]

Scott, I've been wondering that same thing for a while now. I think it comes down to recurve design and the mass of the limb. Modern fiberglass recurves have very short working limbs which means lower limb mass in general. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the recurves are usually working which increases energy storage (I think?). These bows are also very laterally unstable. Because of the materials and the advantages of the design I think it's more effective to make it that style where a stiffer, narrow recurve would just be unstable. With wood bows of any design the outer part of the limb hardly stores any energy and doesn't do much bending past a certain point. That part of the bow can be narrowed to reduce mass with no ill effects, thus making the bow faster. I think some faster designs are capable of being made from wood but straight stave bows are much more stable and easier to make.

[ionicmuffin]

Oh, and fiberglass is a MUCH better material if you are just looking at it speed wise. my 45 lb fiberglass recurve that i used to have was able to shoot at about 200 fps maybe a bit more, that much more speed is why many bow hunters have migrated to that style of bow, and if you bring out the compound bows you get upwards of 250-300 fps, so its obviously superior design for the style of materials i doubt wood could handle the stress if you make it very similar to the glass recurve style

[fishfinder401]

i doubt wood could handle the stress if you make it very similar to the glass recurve style

challenge ACCEPTED!!!!!!!
(i will get to it at some point lol.... i have so many unfinished bows )

[H Rhodes]

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Oh, and fiberglass is a MUCH better material if you are just looking at it speed wise. my 45 lb fiberglass recurve that i used to have was able to shoot at about 200 fps maybe a bit more, that much more speed is why many bow hunters have migrated to that style of bow, and if you bring out the compound bows you get upwards of 250-300 fps, so its obviously superior design for the style of materials i doubt wood could handle the stress if you make it very similar to the glass recurve style

...which goes back to what was said about there being more to a bow than just arrow speed....  durability, weight, length, climate where it's to be used....  lots to consider when you start comparing types of wood.    Osage would probably be top of my list, but I am lazy and don't enjoy chasing rings!  Osage works good in our weather down south.  If I were hunting Arizona I would use hickory.... Man, I didn't mean to way in on this....

[RyanY]

Scott, while there are many factors to design and performance, it's been proven that reducing outer limb mass can greatly contribute to increased arrow speed. Do I understand you correctly in that the bow you're proposing would be a whip tillered bow with long stiff handle section?

[RyanY]

I used to think the same thing. A bow such as that would have a short amount of working limb and the extra length would increase energy storage. But, I believe a stiff tipped limb can have less outer limb mass than one that works and it would also have lower string angle leading to more energy storage. There's also the concept of leverage in bows which I have yet to sort out in my head. That's for another thread though. 

[fishfinder401]

i know what the fastest design is..... the one i'm not make

[soy]

All arguments aside Here is my theory...
 is Osage a better bow wood then any other?...no!
 Is Osage a better wood in which to make a bow?... quite possibly yes
 performance, beauty, and bias aside

[Pappy]

Man I missed all of this,O well didn't have much input anyway. Got all the TBB,
just never read them and know nothing about physics. Osage makes a great bow as do many other woods. Don't know much about speed or design,just build bows to shoot and hunt with. Love to read all this stuff tho. Thanks for keeping it clean,you guys are the greatest.
   Pappy

[SLIMBOB]

So, we have a consensus this morning.  Osage makes the best bows, Poplar makes the most flexible laundry paddles.

[toomanyknots]

  the only way you can make me believe you is if I see that 50" poplar 40/60 ratio Molly drawing at least 50@25".

What do I win?

HA!

[blackhawk]

So, we have a consensus this morning.  Osage makes the best bows, Poplar makes the most flexible laundry paddles.

Exactly..glad someone else sees nothing but a laundry paddle.

When I tell newcomers I preach design and tillering are the two most important things in bowmaking and go hand in hand. And in my mind that "thing" only proves my point that design can only take you so far with certain woods. If you were to narrow a handle section on that enough ti where you could actually shoot arrows and actually call it a bow it wood outright break. Design forced Ryan to make something that is totally useless and impractical that won't even shoot arrows. If it can't shoot arrows(comfortably and within normal reasons) its not a bow.

[Shaun]

The title of this thread is inflammatory - I'm sure on purpose. MOJam was started by internet discussion of white wood vs osage many years ago. The resulting "Put your whitewood bows up against osage bows" was the main purpose of the first MOJam gathering. Results were that a very carefully made whitewood bow could perform as well as osage if speed were the only measure.

Osage is difficult (not easy) to work. It is hard, crooked, knotty, must be ring chased and is hard to split. The advantages are overwhelming... It has excellent modulus of elasticity, is incredibly durable, heat bends and is beautiful. I have seen hundreds of hero shots of deer taken with self bows and more than 95% have been with osage.

Some fruit / nut woods will make a very nice hunting bow. Some readily available lumber yard woods will make marginal board bow - mostly useful for learning tillering skills without the time, work and expense of using an osage stave.

That poplar molly board bent on the tiller tree is interesting, but it is not a bow. Does it really pull 50 @ 25? Does part of the definition of a bow include holding it in your bow hand and launching an arrow?

I love to build bows from all kinds of suitable bow woods (this does not include poplar) but for a hunting bow all other woods are second choice or novelty. Anyplace where osage is available, it was and is the choice of all serious hunters.

A Prius is a fine vehicle, but I'll stick to my 4 wheel drive truck for hunting.