Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...

[blackhawk]

This kind of discussion  led to the first MOJAM, where bows were tested for speed. If I recall, the fastest Osage bow came in somewhere around number 5, although I don't have my TBB with me. Of course other factors such as durability weren't evaluated.

Gabe

Tim hermetically sealed his bows before going into the high Missouri humidity,and all the bows were shot with the same 500 grain arrow,and not the same grains per pound,and then based it on a general theory that a bow should shoot 100+ whatever the weight of it was. It was a very crude lopsided test IMHO. A lot has changed even since then...I love the TBB's, but there is a lot of bias and BS in them that you have to be able to read between the lines.

[PatM]

I'm not sure too much stock should be put in the various types of bows possible from a wood. Many of the bow types we shoot are just to satisfy our experimental side. You can generally make any bow type from any decent wood by tweaking length and width.
 What is harder to prove is that an Osage bend in the handle Mollie of say 56 inches is any better than say an Elm or HHB that's a couple of inches longer and a hair wider.
 There generally isn't a prize just for making a bow "possible". It still has to do its thing.
 While the first Mojam is still disputed we still haven't seen any sign that the results would be any different.
 A good comparison would be for someone who has a made a really good bow from each of a wide variety of woods to pit them against each other.

[fishfinder401]

come on guys, keep this discussion going, i need something to pull me from my homework

[RyanY]

Dave 55, There was once an entire civilization that dedicated themselves to trying to make poplar bows. But for some reason they died of starvation.

OneBow, Its true that the heavy tips would be more difficult to stop but they are slower. The heavy tips and light tips of two different bows move at different speeds and that's all there is too it. Look at the equation relating force, mass, and acceleration, Force = mass x acceleration. The force is equal for both bows so as mass increases, acceleration decreases for the force to stay the same. Independent of arrow mass heavy tips move slower with equal force from the bow meaning there's less force to put into the arrow.

MOJam Part 2 anyone? 

[Carson (CMB)]

<snip...>Can anyone who actually understands physics evaluate that thought for me?

...at least that's what made sense to my way of thinking. 

OneBow

Thank you onebowonder for putting that in terms we can all understand...Football.  That was beautiful man.

[Carson (CMB)]

OneBow, Its true that the heavy tips would be more difficult to stop but they are slower. The heavy tips and light tips of two different bows move at different speeds and that's all there is too it. Look at the equation relating force, mass, and acceleration, Force = mass x acceleration. The force is equal for both bows so as mass increases, acceleration decreases for the force to stay the same. Independent of arrow mass heavy tips move slower with equal force from the bow meaning there's less force to put into the arrow.

Ryan, there you go again, trying to leave the arrow out of the equation.  And I thought you said you understood the physics of this stuff.  If you are talking about the speed of your bow tips upon dry-fire, then why dont you just do some tests on some of your bows and get back to us .

[blackhawk]

@patm...I generally agree with you,and I'm not in the osage only camp(far from it really)...in my opinion speed results are not the only factor as to what makes the best bow...I have made short bendy mollies from both woods and guess which one sees the most action in the woods? And that's proof enough for me. And we all have so many differing opinions on what makes a great bow,that any test anyone comes up with will be disputed.

[Jim Davis]

Those who do not study history eventually claim it never happened.

I don't recall whether it was Clarence Hickman or Paul  Klopsteg (both physicists) who measured the effect of the mass of limb tips back in the 1930s. Whichever did it added successively greater  weights  to the limb tips and measured the result on arrow speed. Shots were made with a shooting machine.

The lightest  tips produced the most arrow speed with any arrow.

It's all written up  in "Archery, the Technical  Side."

How 'bout a  thread on "How many teeth are there in a horses mouth?" (No fair checking with  the horse's mouth. Just argue  opinions.)

Jim Davis

[PatM]

The football analogy really isn't a good one. The slower heavy guys are still accelerating when they do their  thing. A bow with heavy tips isn't still digging into the turf and gaining momentum on the loose.

[osage outlaw]

I'm not big into all this physics talk, I've never shot a bow through a Chrono, and I've never done a F/D graph.  But I do have one question.  If osage is inferior, why are there so many osage character bows?  You see them with big holes in the limbs, wind checks, knots, bug damage, heck, I have one with a bullet hole in it.  I have seen a few character bows from other woods, but not many, and not with the same amount of flaws that an osage bow can withstand.  Why are osage bows able to still work with all of those problems?   

Each wood has its best designs and limits and if built within those limits they are fairly equal performance wise.  I like osage because of the many reasons Blackhawk mentioned.  The most important reason I prefer it is because it is tough.  I can screw a lot of things up on an osage bow and still end up with a working bow at the end. 

I think arrow speed is an overused way of judging bows.  How did Native Americans make bows for thousands of years and not know how many F.P.S. they shot?  I'll take a tough dependable bow over a fast, on the edge bow any day.  But that's just me.  And this is just my opinion from my simple brain.

[PatM]

There are so many Osage character bows because it tends to grow that way and people like them.
 There is a dearth of Native American character bows though, from any wood.

[RyanY]

CMB, let me put it this way. Any given bow will shot a heavier arrow slower than a lighter arrow. Also, a bow with heavier outer limbs will shoot any given arrow slower than a bow with lighter outer limbs. Now add those together.

Osage outlaw, character bows can be built from any wood. I've seen a white wood bow with hole so big you could probably throw a football through it. Yes osage can take a lot more than other wood but I think that's an excuse for poor workmanship more than for the wood.

[osage outlaw]

CMB, let me put it this way. Any given bow will shot a heavier arrow slower than a lighter arrow. Also, a bow with heavier outer limbs will shoot any given arrow slower than a bow with lighter outer limbs. Now add those together.

Osage outlaw, character bows can be built from any wood. I've seen a white wood bow with hole so big you could probably throw a football through it. Yes osage can take a lot more than other wood but I think that's an excuse for poor workmanship more than for the wood.

That doesn't really make sense to me. 

[blackhawk]

Yes osage can take a lot more than other wood but I think that's an excuse for poor workmanship more than for the wood.

If you even admit yourself that osage can take a lot more than other wood,then how is it an inferior wood back to your original statement?

And when I make an osage bow I ain't putting in any poor workmanship Into from start to finish,its just the opposite because its the best and deserves to be treated as the best to give it justice.

[RyanY]

I mean one can build an osage bow improperly and it'll still not explode. Some other bow woods aren't as forgiving. Yes it can take more but say you make an osage bow that bends way too much right out from the fades. Yes it'll probably survive where other woods wont but the tiller is still off and with that much moving mass it'll be a dog. I hope no one took that comment personally. It wasn't a jab at anyone's workmanship.