Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...

[blackhawk]

Ryan..you have already said osage is great,and I love osage..and it even tops your top ten list..and to me its as simple as this...your trying to debate osage is inferior ....how can you say those things after when your trying to debate that its inferior? Your not making any sense ,if it was inferior it wood be at the bottom of your list, not the top no matter what number you give it.

[BowEd]

Good point OO but this is not the case here.I think he has had good success making some exceptional bows and wants to rewrite the Bowyers Bible series of books requoting the same things said,but with his name on it along with the other authors.Just an observation.....LOL.
There is'nt much out there that has'nt been done before thanks to a lot of the people on this forum.Ryan included........LOL.
A lot of what you are asking to be proven you have to do it yourself Ryan.

[rossfactor]

This thread has suffered from a "burden of proof" disagreement.  Some folks seem to think the burden of proof is on the Osage guys to show that it is superior, other seems to think the burden of proof is on the other guys to show that Osage is inferior.

Its a hell of a lot easier to show that Osage is NOT inferior than it is to show that it is, in fact, superior to other woods.

I wish poplar had never been part of this though. It just muddied the waters.  You can't "design your way" into a very practical hunting weapon with a lot of woods, for most of the hunting styles that bow hunter use. Maybe in the performance category, design is king, but in the 'real world' category wood choice makes a ton of difference. Its hard to hunt with a 76" long bow in most places in North America. Hence, our ancestors (who knew more about bows than this whole site times a million) carefully picked the wood they chose to make bows.  Ishi, may have said (and I paraphrase) "any old stick will work for a bow" but given the choice he picked mountain juniper, right?. Hmmm..

"While living at the museum, Ishi made bows from many different woods, but his favorite material for the bows he lived by was mountain juniper (T. Kroeber: 189). He told the anthropologists that other tribes used yew, and he knew the leaves were poisonous to eat (Heizer and T. Kroeber: 175)."

Gabe

[RyanY]

Blackhawk, like I've said in previous posts, the title was mostly to start the discussion. Osage is anything but inferior but to say its better than other woods because other woods can't bend the way Osage does is completely invalid. This conversation was started because I wanted a good discussion on the importance of design with any wood. Also I've worked with less than ten species of wood so it was inevitable! 

OO, that's a good point but favorites are favorites. What I don't agree with is the definition of what makes a better bow which I don't think has much to do with availability. I've never used a lot of woods but I'm sure they all make excellent bows.

Beadman, can't say I haven't considered it! I wouldn't start a discussion like this if I didn't feel it was important. I'm no innovator and I don't claim to be. I simply feel its important to spread the ideas that I preach. Like a Bowyer Missionary!

[blackhawk]

I definitely don't think Osage is an inferior bow wood, for many categories of how we measure bow wood, especially in the mechanical properties of wood category.

I just think that when it comes to the "King", across many categories its hard to argue that anything beats Yew wood for making bows.  The only place yew wood loses is (1) easily available and (2) using your bow as a baseball bat.

Per unit mass, Yew tends to have higher elastic strength than Osage, while rupture strength and crushing strength are basically a wash per unit mass between them.

Gabe


Awesome Gabe..I love yew too ..and it tops my "top" list of superior woods

[George Tsoukalas]

There is no burden of proof on anyone because all of this is subjective. Terms like "better", "inferior", and "excellent" are all qualitative and the characteristics of a good bow wood are highly personal and subject to one's taste and region. Terms like osage is a better bow wood sound like what I hear on commercials. That's why I avoid threads like this. One of my $8 board bows is capable of shooting further than any osage or other stave bow because it has no crown. Easy with the poplar. I made one too and it did well for25o shots and then it exploded.  Jawge

[rossfactor]

Good points Scott.

This is anecdotal but,

Low elevation stuff seems prone to trouble under 20 F. High elevation stuff grows where its usually under 20F anyway, and seems to do better.

I've never hunted with yew wood bows in very dry climates either. I've heard osage suffers in dry climates also though.

I think a lot of it has to do with the climate you built it in.  Say, you optimize your bow based on a wet or dry climate.  Than you move to a different climate, your bow could suffer.

Here's a good quote from PP with names blocked out for privacy:

"When I got to hunt elk with A and B and C in" (a dry part of ) "Oregon a couple years ago, both A and B had spontaneous bow failures. A's was made of yew, and B's was sinew backed osage. B's design was highly stressed (long draw, heavy weight, shorter bow). Both bows would likely have survived to return to more humid climates if they had been weather sealed better."

So, few woods are immune to the effect of climate.

Gabe

[BowEd]

Pearl, Sounds good man!

Beadman, If I get to sleep at 2pm I'm in. 

Blackhawk, my point is valid because all three can be scientifically proved. To say osage is better because it can can bend farther than other woods at higher weights is invalid because other woods can be designed to do the same thing. If a wood isn't as elastic then it'll need to be thinner and wider. If it's less dense then wider still. Compression or tension strong? Appropriate trapping. Osage is great wood, don't get me wrong, but to say its better for certain reasons when it's not is bogus.

No.......that's when you go back out to hunt till dark and old hedge will be ready and waiting.Like a good coondog.

[RyanY]

Jawge, You make an excellent point. I think I forgot to mention I was talking about long target bows this whole time!

Beadman, That statement has no empirical value. Wood does not wait nor is its performance affected by the position of the sun. What empirical evidence is there to say that a good white wood bow would be more sluggish than a good osage bow at the end of the day?

[BowEd]

We are running out of humor now.I'm just getting started.If my humor goes over your head it's not my fault.
Osage has always been proven and known as being a quick wood.Not all but most.That's because it recovers quickly from being braced 3 to 4 hours.If you would know this you would'nt ask about it.Yes I've proven that to myself many a time using whitewoods against hedge.
Don't care whether you believe me or not.You'll have to find out for yourself.As this theme has been from the beginning.

[RyanY]

Beadman, you can say anything happens because you've seen it happen in your experiences. But without an explanation it means nothing. If you can't answer the why with anything but "just because" then you don't know the answer either.

EDIT: I do have to apologize as I am probably the worst person on the planet at detecting subtle humor and sarcasm over digital messaging.

[BowEd]

Thought that was obvious with my statement.Hedge is a superior wood and God made it maybe you could ask him.It has qualities overall that are superior.

[RyanY]

Beadman, Why? What makes osage superior? It's snappiness? What makes it more snappy than other woods if it even is? Why does it recover more quickly if it even does so? I could keep going. The point is that all these questions can be answered with a scientific explanation. Because it's osage just doesn't cut it.

[BowEd]

I take it for what it is.I'm not an engineer or physicist.In fact those guys can't agree either.Let me know when you find out.I'll buy your book but.....it won't change my mind from what type of wood I'll grab because it does'nt make a difference in my book.Do you think the Indians asked themselves these questions around the campfire?Neccessity is the mother of invention and convenience and ease of construction contribute to help her.

[RyanY]

If your mind can't be changed then there's no point in ever entering a discussion with you. I'm not saying people can't have their favorite woods but we shouldn't make claims that aren't supported by evidence. In fact I do think native americans and peoples of any archery culture asked these questions. In fact I'd be willing to spell out a hypothetical conversation they might have had.
"What about that tree? Can we make bows from that?"
"That tree produces wood the color of gold and hard as a rock. Too much work and we can make good hunting bows from plenty of other woods. Why bother."