Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...

[mikekeswick]

To say all woods are equal is just untrue...if they are all equal then try and make them all the same dimensions as an osage bow and see what happens. Simply put osage is superior because it takes less wood to make a great bow. If were talking strictly wood properties that way then osage is number one.

Is anyone saying all woods are equal??
Perhaps most hardwoods can make equal performance bows is more like it?
Osage can make dogs of bows just like any other. If the only factor is how much wood it takes to make a bow then ipe,greenheart and a few others will come out dimenisionally smaller for the same poundage as osage and that IS A FACT
The other major factor when choosing a wood is how it's suited to the environment where it is going to be used.
My personal favourite might have to be elm. It will hold a lot of reflex when treated correctly, isn't overly dense hence doesn't need to be especially narrow in the outer limbs. It can make ANY design of bow. It grows here....Can be made into character bows. Is highly elastic (normally) and very strong in tension so will not break unless abused. It can take plenty of knocks. Good in compression and with a bit of heat treating is excellent.
Anyway we all seem to be going round in circles here and more or less agreeing with each other. The only way to settle all these arguments would be to arrange another mojam style get together and do some testing. I would gladly make a few bows that are the best I possibly can and send them over the pond to you guys for the testing.
If anybody else is up for it I propose starting a new thread where people who are interested can put their names in and organize it. Heck I might even buy a plane ticket and come.....it would be very nice to meet some of you fellas.
Also that 200fps at 10ggp challenge is still standing.....I personally don't think osage will be the wood used to beat it. I think a wood of around 0.6 - 0.7 sg is a more likely candidate.
Come on guys lets get it on!!!!

[mikekeswick]

Ya must've missed my last sentence George...judging by tension,compression,and elastic properties alone its number one,and that's what allows it to be smaller than other bows. Make those others the same dimension and try to get the same bend with them and see what happens. Are they equal now?

We are past the point that design can make a lot of other woods equal to osage.

Even if you adjust your dimensions to make it equal in set loss and cast, I believe the majority of the time osage can take more abuses such as overdraw,being dinged,etc...make ten bows,all 50" long,5 of ash and 5 of osage and design both correct. Tiller all to 65@25". Now overdraw all those bows a couple inches+ repeatedly shooting them and see what happens. The osage will hold up better because it is stronger in tension,compression,and a higher elastic modulus.

Design can compensate for all these factors.......osage is not magic

[George Tsoukalas]

"Ya must've missed my last sentence George...judging by tension,compression,and elastic properties alone its number one,and that's what allows it to be smaller than other bows. Make those others the same dimension and try to get the same bend with them and see what happens. Are they equal now? "

Of course not, blackhawk. I said as much. I do love osage, too, but it doesn't grow on trees around here in the Granite State.

I wonder how osage would fare in a desert environment? I wonder if hickory would be far superior there? Now take that same hickory bow and bring it to FL. Rhetorical questions.

Availability and regional concerns are important.

A bowyer should not ever be past the point of design because that is the whole key to successful bowyering. That's where this discussion should end.

Those who like short bows should use osage. I don't like short bows because they stack badly and aren't good for my style of shooting. Give me a fairly long Eastern Woodland style bow and I'm happy.

Someone said above that the choice of bow wood is a really personal choice and I've made bows from many, many woods including yew, BL, white oak, red oak, elm, hop hornbeam, hickory, sassafras. maple, Aus. pine, chestnut, and osage. I think some others too.

The  only thing I don't like about osage is it makes my workshop yellow.

Jawge

[blackhawk]

I'm speaking from a controlled environment type testing tho. And not rhetorically. The three most important properties in bow wood IMO are tension,compression,and elasticity. Stack up all the bow woods in a controlled setting for testing and find out which one wins overall judging by those three categories. I'm bringing this up because its just another reason to the many reasons why I believe osage is best.

Mike I disagree with you,some woods will bend farther than others and you know it,its been proven in many controlled settings. Even if you design it to take the abuse of overdraw it will then be overbuilt too much.

[Parnell]

I need to send you a piece of Australian Pine, Blackhawk.  It's down side is, it doesn't move at all from how it grows (from what I've found).  But, in the categories your looking at; tension, compression, and elasticity, I'd wager Osage doesn't win.  Just sayin...

[crooketarrow]

  Who really cares.
  I use Osage mainly simply because it's a lot local. I built bows from every kind of wood I could fine and get. Long before the internet it. Where now it so easy to broaden your bow building.  Around hear tons of HICKORY,ELM, BL,HACKBERRIE.  I've use a few others that are local.
  I always have came back to OSAGE. Why it local and I love the color,working it and the color it turns as it ages. The smell and you can do just about ANTTHING to it and it still shoots a arrow. So what if people over build their bows. I do. I like the reflex look. But I think want it'd wort Osage cna't be beat.
And people that has used it for more than a couple bows see this.
  Everyone got into building bows for what ever reason. Personally I want a custom long bow and did'nt have the money to buy one. So I built one, sure did'nt know it was going to led me down the trail I'm on or I'd started 20 years soon than I did.
      Selfbows are surpose to be PRIMITIVE if you really want to get that tect. You need to start sanding and grinding LAMS or better yet have that compound in the bow press get the levels,tapes  tool box. I can look over it it you use a band saw and sander. If for some reason you have to get that bow finished. But even then I don't conceder that very PRIMITIVE. But each his own.
  I CAN JUST SEE A BUNCH ON INDAINS SETTING AROUND THE CAMP FIRE PASSING A BOW AROUND.
 WELL IT'S NICE BUT IT'S WAY TO OVER BUILT. WHEN YOU GOING TO STOP USEING THAT OLD OSAGE AND USE A REAL WOOD.
  End results the same over built OSAGE I built 15 years ago.

[Carson (CMB)]

This is a quote from Tim Baker on another property of osage.
"Properly made bows of the same length will be about the same thickness regardless of wood species or poundage, the lighter-wood bow merely wider per drawweight pound than the dense-wood bow. If the outer limb of the light-wood bow is made as narrow as can be for lateral stability, the dense-wood bow will have to be narrowed roughly in proportion to density if it's to be as mass efficient."

"So say a .40sg poplar bow is 1/2" wide five inches form its tip, and that if any narrower it would be unstable laterally. Now make a .80sg osage bow, same length, poundage, etc. To be as optimized as the poplar bow it will be 50% narrower. Osage is about 50% stiffer than poplar, but if the outer limbs are narrowed by 50%, something new comes into play: Reduce width and lateral stiffness reduces by a cubic function. If the poplar's outer limb was reduced in width by half it would become one-eighth as stiff. A wet noodle laterally. The osage's 50% extra stiffness would be insignificant; the outer limb would fold. This is why a best-designed osage bow will be slower than a best-designed lighter-wood bow. Can I get a high five for that explanation?"

Thoughts?

Ryan, back to your original post, is the second paragraph in quotes also Tim's words?

[BowEd]

Wheooo.The civil manner and sticking to points made are very good here.Most commentors must have been in the pits with an angry wife a time or two to learn such exceptional civil manners but getting their pont accross yet,but that's a different debatable subject.....LOL.
All I will say is hedge is not an inferior wood period to me,and that was the question asked in the very beginning.Personally I've never had a hedge bow break for me but a few whitewoods have hit the scrap pile from my learning curve of making bows.I know at MoJam the wood of choice for the beginners is hedge and I'm sure has started and addicted more bow makers than any other kind of wood.
Now as for performance heat treated hickory bows of mine do out perform a lot of my hedge bows.Lighter limbs I'm sure,but the best hunting type bow wood debate does encompass a very large picture.Just to fling an arrow at a range does not convince me at all.
In that light hedge gets my vote.

[rossfactor]

Blackhawk, I'd say judging be tension, compression, elasticity and mass, Yew has the inside track. All those other properties should be assesed per unit mass.

[blackhawk]

I need to send you a piece of Australian Pine, Blackhawk.  It's down side is, it doesn't move at all from how it grows (from what I've found).  But, in the categories your looking at; tension, compression, and elasticity, I'd wager Osage doesn't win.  Just sayin...

Seriously

[blackhawk]

Blackhawk, I'd say judging be tension, compression, elasticity and mass, Yew has the inside track. All those other properties should be assesed per unit mass.

Gabe...your then missing the point. I have given reason after reason why osage isn't inferior. I am debating that among all the bow woods it is not inferior,and inferior bow wood would be something like poplar Out of all the reasons I have given,even if you don't think its number one in that specific category it still ranks at the top of the list in each category,and many that are debating against me even agree with that. So how can a wood that ranks tops in every category be at the bottom of the list? Osage is one of the best and in my opinion it is the best because it scores higher than any other in each category.

[adb]

I like osage so much, I'm willing to pay $50 per stave to have it shipped to Canada from places like Texas.

[blackhawk]

I like osage so much, I'm willing to pay $50 per stave to have it shipped to Canada from places like Texas.

And in my book called "one million and one reasons why osage is a superior bow wood" that is reason number 745,891...lol...

[PEARL DRUMS]

I burned my whole pile of osage last night after reading this thread. Actually its still burning, stuff gets hot!!!!!

[BowEd]

Ryan you say you have to be convinced of hedge being a better hunting bow wood.I'm like you in that seeing is believing.Have you actually made a bow go through all of the rigors of day to day bracing,bangs and bumps,weather extremes etc. in a hunting season [I mean at least a month every day]to come to the conclusion you have.If so I don't blame you for saying what you say.If not try it once.