Author Topic: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...  (Read 132063 times)

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Offline osage outlaw

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #120 on: November 28, 2012, 10:48:36 am »
Not all osage is crooked, knotty, hard to work with, and hard to split.  In fact, I love splitting osage.  I would rather split it than any other wood.  It seems to hold its grain and have less run off than other woods I have worked with.  And chasing a ring is no big deal unless you have a character stave or super thin rings. 
I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left

Offline RyanY

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #121 on: November 28, 2012, 10:53:03 am »
I'd like to see the 50" Osage bow with the same stats. I'm sure that it's handle would be too wide for anyone but Ishi. OF COURSE THE BOW IS IMPRACTICAL BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT!!! The point is that wood can be designed to be bent the way we want it. Say I added a 6-8" handle section. The bow would still be under 60" and I would have a shootable bow. Design is what allowed 30" of working length in POPLAR to get to a 50#@25" draw and 1" of set. You said yourself that a bow such as this couldn't be made, NOT THAT IT COULD BE SHOT. Lets see your osage bow of the same design.

Edit: length does not decrease bend distance if it's not in the working limb. My bad.

Offline Tom Leemans

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #122 on: November 28, 2012, 11:05:56 am »
LOL! Isn't this how MOJAM started?

blackhawk

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #123 on: November 28, 2012, 11:08:30 am »
Her ya go..now what do I win... >:D and by the way ..This is a real bow..and still shoots amazing to this day and pulls 26" with ease. It has withstood the abuses of a backpacking excursion in a high humidity rugged mountainous terrain,dropped on rocks,used as a walking stick with a 40 pound pack on my back,I even fell when hiking and fell right in top of it,it dinged her up,but she still keeps on shooting.

 https://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,30598.0.html

blackhawk

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #124 on: November 28, 2012, 11:15:11 am »
And here's an example in hophornbeam..mind you its 52" but still pulls half its length...see the difference? I love this bow as well,but as a hunter my choice is the osage.

 http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35393.0.html

Offline RyanY

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #125 on: November 28, 2012, 11:18:22 am »
I am impressed by that bow but you know that the deflex helps achieve that draw. Plus that handle is still fairly wide. Bet you wouldn't get very far upstream using it as a paddle though! I hope you at least understand the point I'm trying to make. If I haven't changed your mind on other woods then I guess you're not a man of your word.  ;)

And the HHB bow. White woods can make those bows and you proved it yourself with that one. So what were you arguing?  ???

Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #126 on: November 28, 2012, 11:28:27 am »
Have you shot that poplar board yet Ryoon? It must fly funny being 2 1/2" off center. Hard to tune I bet. Too bad you cant make it half that wide and still get that length and weight from it. 
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

blackhawk

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #127 on: November 28, 2012, 11:28:50 am »
Its actually a hair under 1 1/4" wide at the handle( the osage ),and that is more than practical handle width.

And I totally agree with everything your saying because I have proved it myself,and since i have with both, my choice and conclusion is the osage is superior in my opinion. I'm not arguing with you at all..I'm just messing with ya cus I know your an easy target..lol.

Offline rossfactor

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #128 on: November 28, 2012, 11:29:42 am »
This discussion, while interesting, hasn't taken us anywhere new.  Nothing that hasn't been said in the last 10 years

Reducing mass on the outer limbs in dense wood like Osage seem to run into diminishing returns in fps before lateral stability becomes an issue.  Case and point, Bakers eifle tower Pecan bow.  If somebody wants to actually add to the body of knowledge in this, they could:

Make an osage bow with wide tips. Shoot it and through a chrono. Reduce tip mass, weigh the bow and shoot it again. And do this until you develop lateral instability. Than compare the mass and the fps just before lateral instability, to the fps of an bow made from a lighter wood. Of course all the problems with reproducability would rear their heads, but at least this would help us with the clear up how much gain you can expect from mass reduction prior to developing instability issues. This may have been done, but if it has I haven't seen the numbers.

Gabe



Humboldt County CA.

Offline rossfactor

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #129 on: November 28, 2012, 11:39:28 am »
Ryans Poplar bow is massively overbuilt even for Poplar. Yes they need to be wider or longer than other woods, but not to the point of ridiculousness or un-huntability. Tim Baker made a Poplar bows that pulled 50 lbs without being 4 inches wide. If I recall he designed a 50lb at 30 inch draw Poplar bow that was 1.5 inches wide, although a hair over 70" long.  Heres a quote from Steve (geeze I find myself quoting a lot)

"Poplar will actually make a pretty decent bow, I have made more than I can count just thinking of them. I know of I have built them at least as high as 70#. Steve"

Gabe
Humboldt County CA.

Offline RyanY

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #130 on: November 28, 2012, 11:45:45 am »
Pearl Drums, It actually shoots great! Faster and more accurate than my Hoyt Olympic style recurve.  ::) I'll try and get video of me shooting it soon.

blackhawk, You're terrible. You know how many people tell me I'm an easy target? Everyone! Well at least I have a bent stick that has many uses such as boat paddle, laundry paddle, boomerang, and fan to name a few.

ross, the easier thing to do would be to take a bow that's already built and add weight to the tips and see how the arrow speed lowers and it's been done. If I'm not mistaken I think 65 grains extra on the tip adds up to a 1fps loss in speed but someone will have to confirm that for me. Also the difference with my poplar bow is that it's only 50" long and only 60% of that is working limb. So really I only have a 30" poplar bow that pulls 50#@25".  ;D

Offline PEARL DRUMS

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #131 on: November 28, 2012, 12:02:00 pm »
Now I KNOW your full of it Sparty!
Only when the last tree has died and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught will we realize we cannot eat money.

Offline Arrowind

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #132 on: November 28, 2012, 12:24:46 pm »
Hmmmmm....

How about making an osage molly with poplar levers... :o   The perfect compromise?

...or siyahs, recurves....

You could go a step further and heat treat the belly, induce relfex, back it with sinew....

I wonder how it would perform....

Talking trees. What do trees have to talk about, hmm... except the consistency of squirrel droppings?

Offline Keenan

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #133 on: November 28, 2012, 12:25:28 pm »
First let me say how impressed I am that you all have stayed very polite and have had a healthy discussion on what could become a "my dad is better then your dad" discussion.
 What I find interesting is the way our experience and comfort zones affect our approach and even our likes or dislikes of certain woods. I have found many people from the southern states like the harder dense woods like Osage, and are often hesitant to work softer woods like yew, vine maple, cascara and other white woods. My observations are they often bow past the target weight and end up with a bow of low poundage.
 People from areas where white woods and softer woodsare more common,  are often spoiled by the ease of scraping yew and similar woods, and find Osage to be like scraping concrete. I know this is true for me and several others I know in this area.
 I see the same scenarios with knapping. Many knappers who have cut there teeth on very hard chert have learned to hit the rock with much more force and when they work obsidian they hit so hard  it shatters and they view obsidian as inferior rock.
This being said it is easy to understand why I like yew and juniper more then Osage. For me they heat treat excellent, and are a pleasure to work. I must admit I got a good chuckle out of the "poplar" comments,  As my very first primitive bow was made out of poplar. I did not know any better and made a decent shootable bow that is still together.  After being told it would eventually blow up I never shot it again. LOL ::)
 Yew, Juniper and Vine maple are often full of pin knots and multiple lumps and bumps, that might cause a problem in other woods so it can often through people for a curve on the comfort zone.  Even the mindset of not having to remove spawood or chase a ring can make some hesitate on how to start.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 01:48:48 pm by Keenan »

Offline autologus

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Re: Why I think osage is an inferior bow wood...
« Reply #134 on: November 28, 2012, 12:40:25 pm »
Ok I will put this debate to bed right now!  The best bow wood is what ever bow wood you happen to be working at the moment.

It is finished!  >:D

Grady
Proud Hillbilly from Arkansas.