vertical grain is stronger than horizontal grain

[gfugal]

Hello guys!

I came across this old thread and found it really interesting. So I dig it out with a question:

I‘d like to use a small ash log, split it in half and use the splitting surface (the side that is normally used as belly) for the back. The fibers would be intact, just as with a chased ring at least from what I understand.
I can see some advantages here: Wide limbs can be produced even from small logs, because there is no high crown. The cross section is rectanguar and it accelerates the roughing out.

Has anybody expiriences with this? If it works, why is this technique not as common as chasing a ring?

Thanks!

I had this idea of a "flipped grain" bow too, I started a thread about it not too long ago but didn't get very many responses http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,63538.msg892830.html#msg892830. I think I'm going to attempt it at some point in the future. I currently have 3 bows I currently have in the works before I can start another one from scratch, and as is, it's taking me a long time to get any done with my school schedule.

[Stick Bender]

I think things are done traditionaly for comon sense reasons & survival , I think we think we are smarter then we really are most things in bowyering have all been done before , edge grain wood if unbacked is a lot more susceptible to moister penetration then a ring followed  , put stain on both & easy to see , but really only one way to find out build the bows to compare as far as performance & durability ! Its easy to speculate but really only one way to find out !

[Bayou Ben]

Sure it can be done, as there's a lot of unbacked board bows to prove this. 
But when using unbacked edge grain as a stave the early growth fibers are now exposed to tension.  I have't tested this, but my guess is that those fibers aren't nearly as strong or durable as late growth ones, and a traditional stave has all unblemished late growth fibers.
I tend to agree with you Ritchie.  Use your previous experience, history, tradition, advice from others as a starting point.  From there the only way to prove something is to let the shaving fly.   

[gfugal]

I think things are done traditionaly for comon sense reasons & survival , I think we think we are smarter then we really are most things in bowyering have all been done before , edge grain wood if unbacked is a lot more susceptible to moister penetration then a ring followed  , put stain on both & easy to see , but really only one way to find out build the bows to compare as far as performance & durability ! Its easy to speculate but really only one way to find out !

I'm definitely not saying throw tradition out the window, and disregard the expert advice from experienced members. I tend to be hard-headed with my ideas and get myself into trouble, but that's just the way I am I guess. I tend to have to learn things the hard way. I also think I should caution any beginner to go out and do "new" things when they haven't even done things the way they've always been done. Trust me I've done that too, only to fail. I am definitely no expert, I don't have near the experience of even an average member let alone the experts. However, I do think we shouldn't dismiss things so easily without first giving it a thorough, persistent, and honest try. I guess I'm trying to appeal more to the experienced members on this page. How many bows have you made now? hundreds if not more? Why not try something new, sure you may end up failing, but you might find out an alternative, if not a better way of doing things. Maybe you deem it not worth your time, and I guess that's your decision. I guess I find interest in different aspects of creativity than most and like to try to think outside the box.

[bradsmith2010]

I think the edge grain bows prove,,,there is no performance advantage,..I'm pretty sure the world record setting bows Badger makes are not edge grain orientation,,,I hope he will chime in,..I am not talking laminated bows,,,and have nothing against edge grain,,,and have made them.,,I think both orientations can make a fine bow
I started making edge grain bows bout 30 years ago...as most of the older guys did,,,,it will make a nice shooting bow

[Bayou Ben]

"I guess I'm trying to appeal more to the experienced members on this page. How many bows have you made now? hundreds if not more? Why not try something new, sure you may end up failing, but you might find out an alternative, if not a better way of doing things. Maybe you deem it not worth your time, and I guess that's your decision. I guess I find interest in different aspects of creativity than most and like to try to think outside the box."

You really think the guys building 100's of bows aren't trying new things? ....and vertical grain vs horizontal grain isn't thinking outside the box.  It's done all the time!

[Jim Davis]

There is a lot of wood, hay, stubble and used hay in this and most threads.

Here is the absolute indisputable truth about edge grain and flat grain. I will not condense or summarize the material, because some would certainly say I misrepresented it.

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch04.pdf

[PatM]

    There's about two sentences in that which sum it all up  to a conclusion most wouldn't be surprised about.

[bradsmith2010]

ok I tried to read it,, whew,, what I got was that in some species,, the grain orintation makes no difference,, and in some it does,,

[Jim Davis]

ok I tried to read it,, whew,, what I got was that in some species,, the grain orintation makes no difference,, and in some it does,,

OKaaaaaay.

Lime is tangential, red is radial. Bigger number = more strength.

[gfugal]

"In some species, there is no difference in 0° [edge grain] and 90°  [parallel grain] orientation properties. Other
species exhibit slightly higher shear parallel or tension perpendicular-to-grain properties for the 0° orientation than for
the 90° orientation; the converse is true for about an equal number of species."

is probably the most significant statement in the article about what we're discussing.

[PatM]

Here is the absolute indisputable truth about edge grain and flat grain. I will not condense or summarize the material, because some would certainly say I misrepresented it.

  Sounds like you may have in your next post.    Or at least made a biased selection.

[bradsmith2010]

PatM,, you still can't prove scientificly that Elvis was not a good singer,,

[gfugal]

ok I tried to read it,, whew,, what I got was that in some species,, the grain orintation makes no difference,, and in some it does,,

OKaaaaaay.

Lime is tangential, red is radial. Bigger number = more strength.

Modulus of elasticity does not equate to strength per se. Rather it's just a measure of how stiff it is. Yew has a lower modulus of elasticity than red oak, yet I think we could all agree which is the better bow wood.

[PatM]

 The answer may be to use some woods vertically and some horizontally but not generalize them all.   I'm certainly never going to mill a perfect Elm tree into edge grained boards ,