Knotty Black Locust Issues

[el-hattab]

I've been working on this Black Locust bow off and on for almost a year now (I keep setting her down, she keeps pickin me back up). Medium crowned having come off a 4.5" sapling, 67" NtN, 50# at 28" right now and I'm willing to finish off at 45# at 29" which gives me a little wiggle room. 1.75" at the fade and straight pyramid (following a little snaking grain) to the .75" nocks. This was the last stave I harvested in my homewoods in Indiana before I moved to the nearly-bow-wood-desert of Salt Lake City, UT, and it means a lot to me to get this bow finished and shooting. I'm finally nearing the end of my tiller and it's been trickier than I expected.


I've got a cluster of knots midlimb on the right giving me a stiff section that I'm nervous to mess with


 and a big crumbly-hearted knot and some reflex 2.5" from the nock that's won't let the tip lay down.

The left limbs been easier going, but there's a wormhole surrounded by veins of dark discoloration midlimb giving me another stiff section and more fears.
 

How can I get those tips to match? Does the stiffness around the fades look acceptable? Do you think the knots and wormholes look too risky? any and all input will be greatly appreciated!

PS. Although this is my first post, I've been reading and absorbing the priceless goings-on of the forum nearly daily for a long time now. I don't know any other bowyers, and I haven't been to any shoots, so this is the only place I've been able to find the company of folks who've got the bow-bug like I do and I'm extremely grateful to you all. Glad to finally join the fray : ).

[Dictionary]

Welcome.

Both of your fades look too stiff to me, especially the limb on the left.

[Cameroo]

Where are you at right now for draw length and weight? What's your brace height? I would just get those mid-outer limbs bending where they are stiff, and call it a bow!

[DarkSoul]

I'd need to see an unbraced picture before I can make any sane comments on the tiller. Especially with a 'sapling' bow as this, the unbraced bow is often not straight but has some dips and curves that should be reflected in the full draw picture as well.
That being said, the handle area appears too stiff with the fades too long, and the right mid-/outer limb appears stiff as well. You're not far off though! Be gentle now, with only small amounts of wood removed in each session. You should have no problem turning this into a bow.

[el-hattab]

Dictionary- I was worried they were a little stiff. I'd never put an image up and added the ellipses to it, so I thought the way it was looking could have been a product of having a 5" stiff handle and 1.5" fades. Thanks for your input, I'll work those down!

 Camaroo- I'm pulling 50# at 28". I was shooting for 50# at 29", but I'll be happy if it comes out at 45#. Brace height is around 4.5" (though I have it a little around 5.5 in the pic). I'm wary of the knots and wormhole at midlimb, do you have any advice for working around them or protecting them?

Darksoul- Here's a pic of her braced and unbraced. There are definitely some dips and curves! This was the first time I've had to work with such a complex start, knots and snakes and dips and curves. I was sure it was gonna go before now, but I'm starting to have hope! Thanks for the encouragement!

[Badly Bent]

I don't like giving advice on tiller simply because I don't always get it right myself and that does look to be a tricky one to smooth out. My last black locust bow gave me fits too. That being said I tend to agree with Cameroo's advice about loosening up mid-outer limbs slightly and calling her done if she shoots well. Thats a good looking bow and your doing well with a tricky stave.
Greg

[Badly Bent]

Looking again and thinking maybe remove just a little at handle also if you want 29" draw. Like I said I'm no expert so you may want to
wait and see if others chime in before taking my advice. 
Greg

[dwardo]

The left limb seems to bend too much in the one spot which looks like if reflects as a little set in the unbraced pic? Maybe get it working in the fade and more mid limb to spread the bend a little and take some of the strain out of that area. Right limb could bend a little more between the 2nd and last third? Also looks like its taking a little follow on the inner limb.

Always fun these knotty saplings.

[BowEd]

If the belly is'nt chrisylling your doing good.Your length is helping you a lot.I've done a lot of side tillering on bows and maybe a little of that done to the last third of your limbs might work.You can sneak up on your bend easier with side tillering.If a knot does'nt run up to your edge and all but just allow more wood there that's all.I'm no expert either especially black locust.Old blackhawk loves the stuff.

[Dictionary]

You can pike it a few inches if it comes underweight anyhow and still have a 64 inch+ bow.

[George Tsoukalas]

Looks like you have a hinge starting mid limb on the left limb. Left limb is stiff off the fade. Getting more movement there will alleviate the hinge. Right limb is stiff off the fade but not too much. Remember that knots should appear stiffer by a little than the rest of the limb. Jawge

[el-hattab]

Greg- I'm definitely going to work the fades. Hopefully that'll take at least a small % of the strain off the midlimbs so I don't have to take too much more off of them. Those knotty rotten midlimbs sure are givin me grief 

dwardo- there's definitely some deflex and reflex in both limbs. I'm not sure if that's what your reading as set and follow. I've givin up on paying attention to those details on this bow, though, too confusing based on the unbraced profile. I think cleaning up at the fades will help with not over straining the wood. Thanks for the input!

Beadman- That's exactly why I chose black locust- I trying to build my tiller skills and one of the TBB mention locust and it's chrisylly potential as a good teacher. I've definitely learned a a lot from this bow. I'm going to try a little side tillering, I'm a little worried about concentrating too much stress on the knots that are causing the stiffness but I think you are right and it'll help.

Dictionary- I've never piked a bow before, how much does cutting the tips back usually add to the draw weight?

Jawge- Thanks for the advice. I was worried the stiffness in the fades were distributing too much strain to the end of the first third : P.  It's a scary endeavor, teasing a balanced-but-stiffer bend across knotty sections. Thanks for the advice and thanks for resources you've got on your webpage, I've learned a lot from 'em and I sure appreciate it.

Thanks for all the input folks! I'll post pics of her as soon as I get her finished. Cheers!!!

[Jim Davis]

I've been making only pyramid bows for a long time. One condition needed with this design is uniform thickness from a little way out of the fades, all the way to the tips.

The great thing about that is that even if the bow has natural dips and hills in the limbs, straight side taper and uniform thickness make the stress even throughout the limb. I do very little tillering witih my pyramids--mostly floor tillering to gauge whether the limbs are of equal strength. I use calipers to get the thickness uniform, put a string on the bow and look it over. If it looks close, I'll give the string a dozen pulls to half draw or so. If that's good, I put it on my tillering tackle and pull with rope and pulley while watching the curves.

A  little scraping brings all to rights.

Darksoul was on the money about considering the unbraced shape.  A naturally crooked limb should not have a smooth curve when drawn. Here is my latest example of that issue.

[el-hattab]

Asharrow- That makes a ton of sense to me! Working all the hills and dips on this bow felt like I was fighting her the whole way- I much prefer the feeling of coaxing a bend out gently , and it sounds like what you're describing will work for that. Thanks for the input! i'm already itching to start on this bow's twin sister stave and I will definitely be taking this approach and comparing the time frame/ease/success. It'll probably make working around the knots a much easier endeavor  - I'll be able to take a more measured approach to how much I protect them instead of just hoping they don't blow as I take more and more off  around them : P. Cheers!