Del's MR Copy

[Yeomanbowman]

Erik,

As I'm sure you will know Pip Bickerstaffe has a theory that the shorter shafts are for a target type draw for close quarters shooting.  I'm not sure that that is the whole reason as it is possible to be accurate with a longer draw.  However, this would certainly enable an archer to shoot more rapidly at short range when the ships drew up together.   At a 28” draw you don't have to lay yourself in the bow as much and against un-armoured sailors amply powerful enough.  Speed shooters take this to an extreme but a mid range draw length 28” still stores a lot of energy at these weights of bow.
I fully agree with you about the different heads enabling a longer draw theory is very speculative.  I just can't see a good reason for it.

Jeremy

[mikekeswick]

I just don't see any point in putting a longer head on to increase potential draw length. Sure you could draw further but why not just make the shaft an inch or two longer? It would also likely mess with paradox to a small degree.

[soy]

Very beautiful bow dell, i would think that i would not be able to draw the weight at that length but i shure would enjoy looking at it

[crooketarrow]

  SWEETTTTTTTTTTT

[killir duck]

nice job on that knot!! beautiful bow

[badcolesonbad]

This is made to approx dimensions of one of the shorter Mary Rose Bows. It's 90# at 28", but it's been taken to just over 29" (see the pic of it on the tiller)
74" ntn 76.5" overall.
I don't want to take it too far due to some serious knot filling work I've done on it. The Yew was cut from an English country estate by a tree surgeon November 2010.
I've been training up for about 2 weeks and can get it to full draw now, I hope to get a pic of me at full draw tomorrow


Below is the worst filled knot, a big squarish void, filled with yew dust/epoxy mix to provide a stable foundation to drill and peg with 4 pegs of Yew.

Below shows a similar knot on the other limb, these knots go from the centre of the belly out to the side, they never appeared on the back at all, lower right of the knot you can see a small pinch, this seems stable and doesn't worry me too much as it's on the belly. The great thing about this bow is the clean back, with just the one big pimple left proud, see last two pics.



The full build story is on my blog (google 'bowyers diary' to find it)
Del

No one can believe it when I show them pictures of huge knots like that in a bending bow, let alone such a heavy bending bow. Its a nice bow for sure. I'm jealous.

[bow-toxo]

[quote author=CraigMBeckett link=topic=30201.msg407851#msg407851 @Bow toxo
The guy I built it for wanted 28" draw. I'm sure it would come back further. I tested it on the tiller to 29", with those two big bad knots I didn't want to risk it further unecessarilly.
I'm drawing it as far as I can! I'm not a youngster anymore...
Del
[/A reasonable assumption unless the shorter arrows were fitted with long bodkin heads and the arrow drawn past the shoulder of the bodkin, as was demonstrated by Alanesq and is, I believe, mentioned on his site.

Craig.
[/quote]
  Instructions of the period  were to draw an arrow to the barbs, or the shouldering of the head, and such a counter intuitive act seems to me pointless to attempt.

[CraigMBeckett]

A reasonable assumption unless the shorter arrows were fitted with long bodkin heads and the arrow drawn past the shoulder of the bodkin, as was demonstrated by Alanesq and is, I believe, mentioned on his site.

Craig.

I'm trying to think why there would be very long bodkins fitted to the shorter shafts.  I'm aware they were used for fire arrows but they couldn't be over-drawn.  I know Alan and respect his analytical mind but never subscribed to his theory on this.  Common sense, to me, would dictate that a longer shaft is a far easier and cheaper way to achieve a longer draw length if that was the aim.  What are your thoughts on the theory?

Jeremy

Sorry not to have responded earlier Jeremy, but have not visited this site for a while, time spent on other things.

As for my thoughts on Allan's idea, I too have my doubts as to the idea but, ignoring anything to do with spine as it did not seem to enter into the medieval archers thoughts, I can think of at least one reason the idea and that is to maintain a "standard" length, so they could fit in arrow chests/barrels that large stocks were both stored and moved around in and also would fit within the "standard" arrow bag such as found on the Mary Rose.


Erik,
I believe you put far too much store into the few written documents that mention anything to do with archery especially as the few that there are were written for the aristocratic hunter who bought his own expensive equipment and was using it to hunt with, not the soldier who used what he was given. I would also suggest that far from being "counter intuitive" drawing an arrow to a set distance, one that ones muscle memory is familiar with is instinctive, drawing to any other distance is counter intuitive, so  if presented with a arrow the shaft of which is short but the cylindrical shaped head of which is long enough to allow a full length draw the intuitive thing to do would be to pull it to full length.

On another tack has your book been published yet? Don't bother answering I see from Amazon it is ans that they only have a few copies left. Well Done.

Dell,

I think I have already congratulated you on this bow, if not I apologise for my tardiness and do so now.

Regards

Craig.

[bow-toxo]

A reasonable assumption unless the shorter arrows were fitted with long bodkin heads and the arrow drawn past the shoulder of the bodkin, as was demonstrated by Alanesq and is, I believe, mentioned on his site.

Craig.

I'm trying to think why there would be very long bodkins fitted to the shorter shafts.  I'm aware they were used for fire arrows but they couldn't be over-drawn.  I know Alan and respect his analytical mind but never subscribed to his theory on this.  Common sense, to me, would dictate that a longer shaft is a far easier and cheaper way to achieve a longer draw length if that was the aim.  What are your thoughts on the theory?

Jeremy

[
Erik,
I believe you put far too much store into the few written documents that mention anything to do with archery especially as the few that there are were written for the aristocratic hunter who bought his own expensive equipment and was using it to hunt with, not the soldier who used what he was given. I would also suggest that far from being "counter intuitive" drawing an arrow to a set distance, one that ones muscle memory is familiar with is instinctive, drawing to any other distance is counter intuitive, so  if presented with a arrow the shaft of which is short but the cylindrical shaped head of which is long enough to allow a full length draw the intuitive thing to do would be to pull it to full length.
Regards
Craig.

 I believe they were written to describe the archery of the period whoch was practised for war by virtually every man in England. Don't forget that aristocrats were still in combat forces in Tudor times and only barons or scholars were exempt. Intuitive has to cover tho distinct lengths of arrows, and ovedrawing a barbed arrow would not have been thought wise. Barbs were vertically up and down and draw was specified "to the barbs or the shouldering of the head"

  Otherwise, thanks.

                                                               Erik

[tannhillman]

Hi,

I have only just seen this topic and wanted to jump back to the start and concur with what Dell said about English Yew re: "Those who say it isn't suitable have never tried it, or haven't the patience to find a good bit"   This myth about English yew not being any good for making longbow/warbows really is a bugbear of mine. I have made a good number of selfbows out of English yew, including heavy warbows and I have worked some great yew with ring counts up to 100rpi, and with ring counts quite often in the region of 60 rpi.  From my own experience I can say that this myth is simply just that, a myth that is repeated by people that have not experienced in working with English/British yew. 

I used to work as a forester and a tree surgeon, and have always taken an interesting in tree growth rates and how they vary in relation to a number of factors including low ground water, shallow infertile soils, restricted daylight, impacts due to regular cutting - coppicing/pollarding for example.  Theses are all factors that will restrict the growth of yew (and other tree species) whether that be here in blighty or somewhere outside of the UK!

Cheers  >>>-------------->

Iain

[ionicmuffin]

Del, i am really interested in what you've done here! can you tell me how you got the bow so darn smooth and glassy please? I really like your bows!

[mullet]

Del;
First , congratulations on a fine looking bow from a challenging piece of wood. I now know I need to dig a little deeper in the knots. 

 

[mullet]

Hi,

I have only just seen this topic and wanted to jump back to the start and concur with what Dell said about English Yew re: "Those who say it isn't suitable have never tried it, or haven't the patience to find a good bit"   This myth about English yew not being any good for making longbow/warbows really is a bugbear of mine. I have made a good number of selfbows out of English yew, including heavy warbows and I have worked some great yew with ring counts up to 100rpi, and with ring counts quite often in the region of 60 rpi.  From my own experience I can say that this myth is simply just that, a myth that is repeated by people that have not experienced in working with English/British yew. 

I used to work as a forester and a tree surgeon, and have always taken an interesting in tree growth rates and how they vary in relation to a number of factors including low ground water, shallow infertile soils, restricted daylight, impacts due to regular cutting - coppicing/pollarding for example.  Theses are all factors that will restrict the growth of yew (and other tree species) whether that be here in blighty or somewhere outside of the UK!

Cheers  >>>-------------->

Iain

Iain, that is why lower elevation Yew is so much cheaper than upper elevation, high ring count Yew here in North America. Personnelly, I haven't found a bad piece of Yew.

[Del the cat]

Del, i am really interested in what you've done here! can you tell me how you got the bow so darn smooth and glassy please? I really like your bows!

Cheers,
I get the finish with scraping and sanding, Danish oil and then a beeswax polish, it's just down to patience (or is that stubborness?).
I use wet or dry paper as it is tougher and longer lasting than sandpaper. I go from 80-120 down to 240 and then 400grit.
On the back I sometimes use a bit of wire wool moistened with white spirit on little concave areas, and also needle files to get into the nook and crannies.
Most of it is just down to perseverance.
I get a coat of Danish oil on quite early as it shows up the tool marks, then I sand them out and give it another wipe. Then I sand the next lot of imperfections and give it another wipe. Then I think the finish is good and I take it outside in the daylight to take sopme photos and I notice some more tool marks so I sand it down again and start over.
You know it's done when you find yourself peering hard at a tiny mark trying to decide if it's a file mark or the grain!
When I was a kid I couldn't understand why you put on a coat of varnish/ paint etc and then rub it down... but then as a kid you don't have the experience and patience.
It's also the thing whereby lots of light coats are better than one thick one. Some guys use thck gloss spray on stuff, fine if you are really going to shoot in the rain, I prefer a more subtle sheen. When I've done wiping over Danish oil every night for a week, I'll give it a go with a soft beeswax polish and buff it up with a rag.
Sometimes I don't spend as much effort. Recently finished a maple flat bow wehich I left with some rasp marks in the belly which was about 2" wide, I didn't want to risk scraping those out and spoiling the tiller.
Del

[tannhillman]

Hi Eddie,

Part of my point was that the wood does not have to come from high elevations for it have a high ring count. The factors I mentioned can all apply at low altitudes and are not only restricted to mountain area's. I have found very dense yew growing at altitudes close to sea level.

Great bow by the way Dell

Iain