How to handle thin ringed osage ( for the newer guys )

[gstoneberg]

Not in my experience Slim.  I've worked osage from IL, NE, KS, OK & TX, and the Texas osage has had the tightest rings.  I don't know how you count rpi though, it's so uneven down here.  Here's an example, end cuts from the same stave.



The larger end has rings in the eighth inch range (8rpi) which I find are pretty good for my area of Texas, while the smaller end has much tighter rings in the 12rpi range.  There's a lot of variation in ring width in the stave.

But, these are the tightest osage rings I've seen.



This bow not yet finished, but it is unbacked...primarily because it is laden with knots.  Sadly, I spliced the billets poorly and the tips aren't even close to putting the string in the handle.  I haven't gone back and tried to fix the bow yet.  If ever I was gonna get a splinter to pop it'd be on that one.

George

[SLIMBOB]

Yeah, I was kinda jokin' about the Big Texas thing.  C'mon, Texas OU weekend (sad effort by the horns).  I've had ring counts all over map.  Most of my wood has come from Texas, but from all corners of the state from the Llano Estacado to the Piney Woods to the Edwards Plateau.  I don't think geography has much to do with ring count.  I will say that I cut some Bois d'ark about 10 years ago off wind breaks out near Guthrie.  Thin little rings on all of it.  But probably the heaviest densest wood I've ever worked.  Very little early growth between the rings.  Much darker color, more orange than yellow.  Great bow wood.  Some of the thickest ringed has come from here in the Hill Country.  Close to a quarter inch rings, but it was not the quality of the thinner stuff.  Not bad, just less dense.  My only point above was I think 1/16 inch rings are among the thinner rings I've worked.  Throw in a high percentage of early growth and you have a paper thin back.  I don't claim to have made as many bows as some of you guys.  And I don't believe I would consider myself in your class as a bowyer, or in the class of many others on this forum.  But I've made a few, picked up some knowledge and experience along the way.  Enough to have brought others into our little group and helped them get started on wood bows.  Some are making better bows than me now!  I've got a take on things based on what I've seen, but I'm always ready discard things I thought to be true when I am shown that in fact they are not.  Keeps us growing.  Whether or not a certain ring thickness could be defined as "Thin" is purely ones own opinion.  Neither right nor wrong, just...ones own take.

Edit... these two came from the same general area east of Austin.  Huge difference in the rpi.  Both made bows of the same general size and design.  The thinner one was just much harder to chase a ring on.

[gstoneberg]

Yea Slim, the 'horns fans are pretty sad today.  Both my son-in-laws went to college in OK and I expect to hear from both today.   I'm really pretty neutral, having lived all over the midwest before here, but I might favor Nebraska's Huskers a little.

Well that's cool, your experience with wood all over Texas is very enlightening.  While I've  made bows out of osage from many states, in every case the wood came from the area around where we, or relatives lived.  I have no experience with wood all around a state like you have.  I would never have guessed that your thick ringed wood came from a dry place like the hill country. I've learned something, as that isn't my experience in Texas.  I agree that thick ringed osage is a little less dense than thin, and both make great bows.

And that was the point of my original post.  There are several benefits to a forum like this one, one of the biggies being the diversity of our shared experiences.  I posted originally because my personal experience does not agree that thin ringed osage is prone to raising a splinter when unbacked.  Like others, including yourself, thin ringed osage has made great unbacked bows for me.  I agree with sleek that it might not be best for new bowyers and maybe that was the point to his post and I missed it.  You're right, the definition of thin is gonna vary between bowyers and regions. 

I'm certainly not in the league of most of the bowyers here.  For example, I have never made a whitewood stave bow and only 1 board bow which was maple.  I'm an osage guy through and through and only on osage bows do I feel I have enough experience to comment.  Even there I have learned a great deal from people on the forum...even today.   It's a great place.

George

[osage outlaw]

All this talk about thin ringed osage has my wheels turning.  I have osage trees on my place that are small, but are really old.  I know when you hit them with a hatchet, it bounces off.  It's like hitting a steel pipe.  They have super tiny rings and I bet they are really dense.  When you cut into them, they have that dark aged look to them already.   I might try to make a bow like the one I saw at the Classic this year.  An older gentleman showed me the back of his osage bow.  It was ring violations from one end to the other.  The rings were paper thin.  He said he sanded it real smooth and soaked the entire back in superglue.  You could tell the bow had been well used.  It was his daily shooter. 

[SLIMBOB]

George...I've cut a good bit of Bois d'ark up around your neck of the woods.  Parker county, Wise county, Denton county.  Places you wouldn't expect to find much if any.  Same thing on rings, one tree would be straight and thick rings.  The next tree was thin and twisted.  Like you, most of my experience has been on Osage.  4 or 5 Hakcberry bows under my belt.  Couple of Black Cherry attempts.  Helped a newbie with a Rock Maple bow.  Tried one board bow and it broke.  Not a fan of 'em.  I think if you can build one out of a board, you got skills.  I'll stick with staves myself.  By the way, good luck with that thin ringed piece in the picture.  Looks like a challenge.

[gstoneberg]

There's quite a bit of osage right here in Collin county too.  In fact my neighbor across the street has a tree in his back yard he needs to keep a close eye on.   You're right though, the whole area has good osage.  If you feel like some more I have 2 trees guys have asked me to cut but I haven't yet as I don't need any more.  I've been fortunate to make 2 friends that have lots chock full of osage they don't want on their property so I haven't strayed very far from home.  Next time you're up this way let me know, be fun to get together.

How did the hackberry compare to osage for you?  There's tons of it around here too, but I've never tried it.  I have a nice stave I was given so it is in my future.  My one board bow took a lot of set so I agree, it takes more skill than I sure thought it did to make them well.  I'm embarrassed to say I really botched that thin ringed splice job.  It has a big s-curve and I cut the splice to align the tips with the handle full length, without thinking that that'd be a 76" bow.  When I cut it to 66" I cut off one of the curves and the string doesn't go through the handle.  I'm really open to ideas as to how to fix it.  Here's the link to a picture of it.  http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5140/5572090328_4325a75054_z.jpg.  That may be before I shortened it.

Dang, I'm hijacking again.  Sorry sleek.  Good Idea OO, I've got a couple really gnarly osage branches that might be candidates for that kind of bow.  I don't remember how tight the rings were.

George

[SLIMBOB]

  Love Hackberry!  It will never take the place of Bois d'ark, but it's really unbelievably nice wood.  Love to get together.  I'm up there quite a bit as my family lives just west of Fort Worth.  Wife's family Decatur.  Sorry Sleek.  Good thread you started!  Lot's of info here.

[sleek]

Hey, I am no hijack snob.... conversations spring from others, I get it... pluss, its related to my topic. Yall are talkin bout bows right?

Oh, and I am sure I could do something with that stave of yours. I would shorten it evenly on both limbs to reduce off center string tracking. Then, I would ( IF I were OCD enough to worry about string tracking ) shape, or glue on, a handle without regard to which direction those limbs faced, that made the string track center of the new handle. In other words, If you cant bring the string to the handle, bring the handle around to the string. Then you will have a prop twisted bow, but it already looks like a propeller so what would that hurt?

[gstoneberg]

All right, I'll tell you what.  I'll revive the old thread on that bow (or start a new one) and we'll take a stab at fixing it.  I'm really having a problem envisioning how you could move the handle sideways, but I'm willing to try something new.  Of course, given those thin rings and all those knots there's no guarantee this one won't blow splinters like crazy.  Tool marks galore, but nearly all my bows have them.  We won't know if it'll hold unless we try though.  Up to now, every time I look at it and see how I glued that splice crooked to line the tips up when straight would have been perfect, I get so annoyed I put it away again.  Wait until you see it.

George

[sleek]

Lookin forward to it bud! Just to add one more thing to that bow... don't recurve it. It will twist the tips to much...

[gstoneberg]

Well I'll be darned, it isn't as bad as I remembered.  It's only about a quarter inch outside the handle.  The back is loaded with tool marks and I'm gonna leave it just as is and see how it works out.  It should pull up splinters.  I've already had it on a long string but it needs a lot of work.  Turns out I've never posted a thread on it?  I'll go do it, be called the S-curve bow.  Lots of pics to choose from.

EDIT: I found the old thread.  Here it is: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,22278.0.html  I have updated it.

George

[PaulN/KS]

Just finished chasing rings on a very thin ringed stave that I had swapped for. The guy traded me three thin ring staves for two of my thick ringed ones cause the thin ringed ones were too thin for his taste..
I managed a good belley split off one so I'm four for the two..
I use a double edged carvers draw knive to get down close to the ring that I want and then scrape with a small knife to clean down to the ring. Slow but steady.

[Buckeye Guy]

Gary Davis once told me to chase to the early growth, then seal for steaming and drying ,then sand off the sealer and as you do the early growth goes with it and no violations to the ring you want !
So basically same as blackhawk said 
Have fun !
Guy

[seabass]

this is all good info.thanks guys.i am chasing one now that is as thin as pacific yew.it is the thinnest rings that i have ever seen.