Osage sapwood

[JABK]

Hello all.  I have been lurking about for a couple of months researching bowmaking, and finally decided I have enough base theory to ask some proper questions. 

Just a quick rundown of my experience (it might help in answering my question):  I know just enough to know how much I don't know about bowmaking.  After reading a book with a passage about bowmaking a couple months ago, I thought "That would be pretty interesting to do."  I have built a couple of bows in the ELB style.  The first was of Hackberry, but I stacked the belly too deeply and it failed miserably (but not explosively).  The second is of white ash, and applying what I learned from the first go-round, it seems to work a lot better.  I even read a primitive skills book and cobbled together a willow branch one-day bow.  It was an experiment, so I can check that one off my list (never doing willow again).  That said, I have read and researched until the rest of my family has contemplated disowning me (Bowyer's Bibles, Toxophilus, L'Art d'Archerie, Hugh Soar, Saxton Pope etc.), so I have a pretty good grasp of the theories and physics involved, as well as materials capabilities (had to dust off some of my engineering textbooks), and construction methods.

So, moving on, since I live on a midwestern farm, we have a tremendous amount of hedge (aka osage, but I grew up calling it hedge) and while out clearing brush, I flung myself in front of the chainsaw to save a fine log from my father's relentless Stihl.  My plan is to make some ELB from it (not chasing weight, just a workable bow; I have learned a lot from my half-cocked 100 lb + hackberry warbow attempt).  Also, since yew doesn't grow in my area, and I don't have a couple hundred years to wait for one to grow, hedge would be my next best bet.

My main question, if you'll pardon the long-winded-ness above, is does the sapwood of hedge/osage provide any benefits to the physics of bow energy release, in the same, or similar, way yew sapwood behaves?  It does seem consistent that all sources say to strip the sapwood off, but I was just thinking that, from personal experience cutting sickening amounts of firewood and fence posts, that the sapwood is capable of pretty much suspending a large tree on its own (you think the tree is going to fall but it just kind of hangs there on a thread of sapwood).  So, without investing too much time into modeling the stuff, as engineers are want to do, I thought surely the tremendous amount of collective knowledge on this site could help me out. 

Many thanks,

Jack

[Sidewinder]

It is my opinion and I am sure the opinion of alot of the bowyers that have worked with osage as bow wood that the heartwood of osage orange is a premier bow wood. With that in mind, I can not see a good reason to leave the sapwood on. I can however see a few drawbacks to it.

1) the sap wood will contain more moisture and therefore is more subject to checking if left in tact.
2) In order to speed the drying process it is recommended that the stave be reduced to the heartwood , the sapwood leaves more thickness that is not needed, consequently extending the curing time.
3) It is easier to chase a single growth ring on the back of the bow with heartwood than it is sapwood due to the noticeable difference in the early growth rings ( chalky and brittle)  versus late growth rings ( dense and solid).

I would venture to say that the sapwood is most likely better than most second tier bow woods, however, since you live where it grows you should have no problem finding an adequate supply if you look in the right places. Aside from that, the sapwood makes great fire starter once you've debarked a few staves and have a good pile.

This is all just my opinion though and I am sure if someone has a bettter perspective they will chime in. Hope all goes well in your journey and welcome to the addiction.   Danny

[Carson (CMB)]

I know that John Strunk has made a couple of sapwood on osage bows. 

[George Tsoukalas]

Take it off if you have enough heartwood to make a bow. If not, get as close to the heartwood as possible because the sapwood immediately above the heartwood is about to become heartwood and is, therefore, denser than the newer stuff. I've built black locust bows with heartwood backs for a couple of reasons, chief of which is there was not enough heartwood to make a bow and because, back in the day, I didn't know any better. The only viable reasons I've heard on the 'net forums for leaving it on, is the sapwood looks pretty and it's too much work to remove it. These are not sufficient reasons to me. Jawge

[Stringman]

Jack, it sounds like your gonna have several problems if you continue down this path. The least of which will be messin with sapwood. I understand you already feel committed since sacrificing life and limb to save a piece of "hedge," but the end of this madness could well be many sleepless nights with your family looking at you with scorn as you drool over and fondle, idly, said stinkin piece of "hedge." If you really love your family do the right thing man and GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!!! 

Seriously  though, where abouts you from? I'm in western IL and if you were close enough you could cut your learnin curve in half (or less) by gettin some lessons first person like. Not tootin my own horn, just sayin, I could show you the basics and then you could run with it. 

Scott

[JABK]

I appreciate all the information.  I believe I'll do some drawknife-n on the staves as soon as I can.  Do I need to shellac the backs after I get all the sapwood off?

I don't have any problems with the size/thickness of the staves (I ended up with 9 of them 90" long, a touch of prop twist in a couple, a few knots, but for the most part pretty straight), I was just curious if the sapwood had any benefits, which it would seem, aside from looking pretty, none to speak of.  For me, the form follows the function.

Danny, you're right about the adequate supply part.  Its almost like a weed on my farm.

Scott,  I'm from about 100 mi straight south of KC, in Missouri close to the kansas line.  I know a couple guys around here making bows (one is a primitive skills consultant, but I have no desire to wear a loincloth and use a sharp rock to make a bow  ), but I would appreciate all the help I can get.  I know of several bowmaking/primitive skills gatherings that happen in the general area: great opportunities for meeting people.

Unfortunately it's too late for me to get out.  There is now an official and far-reaching ban on discussing bow topics in my house (For the life of me I don't know why), and at this point the scornful looks are a fact of life.  But I reckon my family will be grateful if King Philip's heavy calvary come charging across the beanfield. 

[fishfinder401]

if its like a weed on you farm can i visit

[George Tsoukalas]

Yes shellac or poly the back unless the wood is completely dried out which will probably take more than a year unless force dried. Jawge

[Badly Bent]

Sapwood on osage may be fine to use, I don't know. What I do know is that I have made several osage bows from heartwood and not a
one has let me down (well one did blow on me at full draw from poor tiller) but it is GREAT bow wood. Good luck with your bow.
Greg

[blackhawk]

Welcome to PA...

Osage is all you need,and if ya have plenty around then don't even bother with that other junk   

I always seal a back with shellac after removing sapwood or chasing a ring no matter how old the wood is....its cheap insurance. Because even 15+ year old cut wood can check if it was stored outdoors, and bringing it indoors to a dry environ after chasing a ring can cause checks. Since your new at this I highly recommend chasing a ring till your skills and knowledge in wood and bowmaking are better developed before messing with sapwood backed osage. The first couple rings I chased was a laborious chore,but once I became efficient at it I came to love chasing a ring. Its zen,and fun chasing the years away and reminiscing to that year etc...

[JABK]

So do you recommend I begin my osage building spree with a standard springy-limb American style flatbow?  If that's the way to get my chops up I'm all for it.  I kind of like chasing rings.  Had some small issues with the learning curve on a drawknife but I think I got that little problem licked.

I'm really interested in the D-bellied longbow design; guess it's the concept of "bending" into the bow and drawing to the ear that interests me, not to mention make the whole bow do some work instead of just the limbs.  I tillered up an old flatbow that was laying around to draw 32".  (I know, it's bad to modify existing bows but I couldn't help myself  I suppose I don't lack for enthusiasm)  It is not powerful but I'm figuring out how to bend instead of draw and loose from the ear.

From what I've read osage can take a somewhat rounded belly, but that also seems to be dependent on the density of the particular stave.  These staves seem to be pretty slow growth, with nice dark heartwood.  The tree was about 20-22" diameter.  I'll drag some staves down from the barn rafters and post a couple pics of them if that would help.

The white ash bow I'm just finishing up has a more square cross-section, per design advice I had read on this forum, and is drawing 65@28" currently, looking for whatever weight at 32".  (I figure I would focus on teaching a bow to bend and dealing with knots and grain irregularities before I start getting focused on designing for a specific draw weight.)  I'm tillering slow and sure and hoping my white ash skills will be applicable to osage.

Thanks for the advice.  I was beginning to be a bit starved for bow discussion (see earlier post concerning ban on bow discussion in my household).

jack

[fishfinder401]

osage will work very well with a belly from my experiences, but make sure you ave the proper length for a 32 draw

[Bryce]

Osage is all you need,and if ya have plenty around then don't even bother with that other junk   

Thems fight'n words right therrr! 

Welcome to PA Jack!

[blackhawk]

Osage is all you need,and if ya have plenty around then don't even bother with that other junk   

Thems fight'n words right therrr! 

Welcome to PA Jack!

Hook,line,n sinker...I knew id catch a scrappy fish with that setup  but u know its sooooo true pinecone 

[JABK]

Seriously, if any of you guys are in, or passing through, the southwest MO area, come on and see if you can find some staves, if you are hard up for osage.  My father and I have been waging war against the hedge menace for many years.  The pastures are thick with them.  If you want to cut 'em down, we won't stop ya!