my first bow - black walnut

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Hello all - I've been lurking/absorbing just about everything in this forum for the last month or two. Now that I'm getting close to go-time on my very first attempt at making a bow, I thought I would throw out a request for a quick sanity-check. Here's my bow (youtube vid was easier to see than the pics I was getting, but if you guys prefer pics in-line, I can do that too):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6T-2tTfOC4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Stats - this is a 63'' tip-to-tip bow made from a stave of black walnut. I cut it in June of this year and still have the other half to work on while I locate some more no0b friendly staves (hickory, etc). It did twist a little bit from drying too fast, but I'm thinking based on things I've read here that the twists probably aren't a problem so long as the string bisects the handle properly. Also, in case you're curious this design came from a combination modeling my 60'' Martin recurve (apparent in the handle) and viewing some of the bows on this site and some youtube vids. Anyway, where I'm at right now is that I've done some floor tillering and I believe I'm ready for the next step. However, in an attempt to hopefully increase my chances of success with this one rather than making a pretty piece of firewood, I was hoping i could get some advice on a few concerns I have (and any other things that you might think after seeing it). Here's what's on my mind:

• Walnut - I did find a few threads here and elsewhere talking about using black walnut as a bow wood. My choice for this bow was simply because black walnut is very easy to find around my place. That being said, I'm concerned about the back. I read somewhere that it IS ok to use the sapwood as the back WITHOUT backing. As such, I didn't chase any rings on this one (walnut rings are hard to see), I simply removed the bark and did my best not to ding the surface. Question - do I need to do something else /w the back to give me better protection against breaking/splinters? Also note in the video that there are a few knots, but I'm hoping they won't be a big deal.
• Handle - I do need to adjust the grip a little bit for comfort and get the arrow rest down a touch. The handle is currently 12''-to-13'' long. I am wondering if I should be concerned about not having enough working limb since my handle is taking up so much space?
• Heat treating - I am planning to heat treat the belly (which I understand that I need to do before moving to the next step of tillering). Anything weird with heat-treating walnut that I need to worry about? I'm currently following a mostly-flat belly design.
  

Thanks in advance for any thoughts guys! I'll keep updating this thread /w progress as I go.

Thanks again!

[Josh B]

First off, you are off to a darn fine start!  2" at the fades is perfect.  I'm a bit concerned about length though.  What draw length and draw weight are you hoping for?  With walnut, your working length of the limbs need to be at least the length of your draw.  It looks to me like you have quite a bit of extra fade out.  I would work those closer to the handle.  I recommend1 1/2" from the shoulder of your fade to the start of your bend.  As far as heat treating goes, in my experience  it only make walnut brittle .  I don't recommend it on black walnut.  I look forward to seeing your progress.  Josh

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Great advice - thanks doc! I need to re-measure my draw length because of some tweaks to my style in the last 6 months, but I believe I'm at 28''. Weight-wise I'd really like to end up around 60# so that I could potentially use this bow to hunt deer. My Martin x200 is 55#, but since I'm a lefty (you might have noticed the shelf being on the "wrong" side) it's slightly more difficult to find traditional bows that are north of 55# from the vendors.

[coaster500]

Very nice start !!!

With help from Doc and the care shown so far, I really can"t wait to see it finished

[DarkSoul]

You're indeed off to a good start! Looks like a nice stave. It's funny to see that a movie is easier to make/post than a photo

I, too, am a bit concerned about the length of the bow. Luckily the stave is pretty wide to accommodate for some of the short length, but it's still too short for my liking. I would recommend beginners to go not shorter than 68" on a bow, and with a long and stiff handle even 72" is a smart decision. Your handle design might seem a logical step, following the design of the modern recurve you're used to. But that shelf you cut in will make things more complicated. With a wooden bow and wooden arrows, you really don't need a cut-in sight window. Really.
I don't think you need a backing, since the back of the stave is very nice and clean. However, this being your first bow, and the relatively short length, a backing might still be a smart step. You can glue down some silk or linen fabric, or even raw hide. It'll give you some extra insurance.
I can't comment on the heat treating...I don't have a lot of experience with that, and none with black walnut.

Since the wood was cut in June, you must consider it to be still wet. How long has it been to near finished dimensions? And where was it stored during that period? With the current dimensions of the wood, you could quick dry it in about three weeks. Put it in a warm and dry place. A car parked in the sun, hot attic, near the central heating system...

[Josh B]

Definitely check your drawlength.  26" is very doable if you can get your stiff handle down to 8" or so.  28" is just too much to ask from this stave.  You are on the right track with the flat belly.  60# @ 26" should be no problem with this stave.  You could gain another 1" of draw with tip overlays that extend past the end of the present tip length, but if they are not done right you could have a disaster.  If you go this way, make sure the string nocks catch the end of the limb.  Ill get my trusty crayons out in a bit and show you what I mean.  Josh

Hopefully my crummy drawing kind of illustrates the tip extension I was referring to.

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HUGE thanks for all the advice guys!

Unfortunately this might get a touch more challenging as I just re-measured my draw length and I'm pulling a solid 28 (closer to 28 1/2) now. I changed my anchor from the corner of my mouth to about 1/2'' back to my jaw around 6mo ago and have been getting much better consistent results from it (I feel like I get a bit more snap outta my arrows too). That being the case I'll do some measuring and see what I can get the handle down to safely. My thought is I can probably get some length back since I've still left it pretty thick - hoping that will help compensate for some of the real estate taken up by the sight window.

Darksoul - you hit it right on the head - I was trying to keep things as familiar as possible, but I guess at the time didn't consider the cost to working limb length.

I'll do some measuring/guestimating tonight after the kiddos go to bed and how much I think I can get back from the handle. After that I'll also do some pondering tip-overlays. I have done some reading on them, but had decided maybe to hold off on the extra step for my first bow. However, if it might make the difference between a potential quality shooter and a pretty wall-hanger, I might brave it. First things first - I'll post again in a bit with some measurements.

Thanks again!

[Ifrit617]

Just want to add one thing... You said you want a 60# bow to hunt deer, but unless your deer are the side of moose you don't need a self bow that heavy to get the job done. Since this is your first bow, I would shoot for 40-45#, plenty to kill a deer with a sharp arrow to the vitals... Plus it will be much easier to hit weight. Course if you want a 60 pound bow, that's your choice, just wanted to add in a little info. 

Jon

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@Ifrit617:

Yeah - I know it's a bit overkill, but I wanted to see what (if) I was missing anything from a hunting perspective with the 55#. My uncle hunts bear and elk with a 60# recurve and I know he always says that he wishes his was more like 55# to save him the back ache and that a 45#er will still put an arrow clear through a deer if you shoot right. I also had in the back of my mind that no0bs such as myself come under weight more often than not so I figured shoot for the high-end of happy and hopefully end-up in the middle.   Solid advice though brother - thanks!

[fishfinder401]

Just want to add one thing... You said you want a 60# bow to hunt deer, but unless your deer are the side of moose you don't need a self bow that heavy to get the job done. Since this is your first bow, I would shoot for 40-45#, plenty to kill a deer with a sharp arrow to the vitals... Plus it will be much easier to hit weight. Course if you want a 60 pound bow, that's your choice, just wanted to add in a little info. 

Jon

he could just do what i did, make your first 60, but with the speed of  45-50

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Quote from: Ifrit617 on Today at 05:55:41 pm

    Just want to add one thing... You said you want a 60# bow to hunt deer, but unless your deer are the side of moose you don't need a self bow that heavy to get the job done. Since this is your first bow, I would shoot for 40-45#, plenty to kill a deer with a sharp arrow to the vitals... Plus it will be much easier to hit weight. Course if you want a 60 pound bow, that's your choice, just wanted to add in a little info. 

    Jon

he could just do what i did, make your first 60, but with the speed of  45-50

You might just be right.

Ok - so I did some measuring and I might be able to stretch the limbs to 26'' between the handle and each tip. The makes me wonder about the upper limb (above sight window) though. At the top of the sight window the bow measures 2'' wide almost exaclty. I DID leave it plenty thick to handle the load, but extending to 26'' of working limb above the riser means trying to make some of my sight window bend which I'm sure is less than ideal. Thoughts?

[Josh B]

Less than ideal is correct.  Your 1 1/2" fade should start at the shoulder of your sight window.  Do you know anybody that needs a short draw southpaw bow?  I'm afraid this ones a practice run for you.  However, you should most definitely finish the bow out.  The experience from this one will only mean a better next one.  I would highly suggest keeping it for yourself even if its too short.  I certainly wish that I would have kept my first bow.   You've done fine work so far.  I look forward to seeing not only this one finished, but the next one and the next one and.........and............  well you get the point.   Josh

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Well - that is a little disappointing, but I'm definitely going to finish it out. My thought now is maybe to just use it as a short draw/quick shoot bow. In any case - thanks again guys for all the thoughts. As soon as it's not 100deg in the evening I'll move forward on it and keep let you all know how it goes.

[soy]

Finish it like you said to a short draw"for you" what a heck of a start it would be a shame to try to make somthing it wont be and brake it...walnut is picky more so than most, i have not tryd sapwood yet but the few heart wood i have done have told me that even maken them a bit long for the draw.....cant wait to see the money shot on that one...best of luck 

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Thanks Soy! I'm just excited to get it throwing sticks! I can't wait to start bow #2 also - I learned that there are a TON of mulberry trees around my place...