Andaman-Holmgaard Horn Composite Thoughts n Q's

[PEARL DRUMS]

Why not an HHB core? Its light, strong, and fast.

[blackhawk]

so heres a possible candidate.....its a hophornbeam stave....as mentioned its clean thru where the working limbs will be....it just has one lil nipple knot dead center of the handle/stave....and you can see where the one limb just twists a wee lil bit.....its 60" long,1"+ thick in the limbs,1 1/2" thick handle section,and about 2" wide at the widest right now

so if i were to try and use this piece; here wood be my plan of attack (short version)

1. finish shape and tiller core to about an est. 30 pounds @28",except leaving the lever section with extra meat for string adjustments later

2. induce reflex to the side profile in limbs,handle,and a lil more in the levers to give me around 4-6" of setback in the core(might have to go more than that).....i wood have to thoroughly clean and degrease after

3.glue horn

4.check tiller an make adjustmenst if needed,but i wouldnt be pulling very far...just enough to get a good read

5. sinew reverse braced first course..wait a week

6. second course twisting up string for more reflex...wait a couple weeks

7. third course the same way,then let cure n season as long as i can bear to wait

hows that sound? doable?    i know its a lil unorthodox from how a true asiatic is made,but i think it wood work...and any adjustments with string tracking i can make by reducing the levers when said and done,and or heating and moving them to line it up dead center down the levers and handle.....just speaking outloud here...if anyone has any other thoughts or ideas then please feel free to add,as to this is why i started the thread

heres the pics of the stave........or not,my photobucket is all messed up right now and not showing my pics.....ill try resizing n doing it thru the attachments here

[blackhawk]

lets see if this works

[bubby]

blackhawk i got all the confidence in the world that you won't screw the pooch on this, can't wait to see what ya come up with, Bub

[PEARL DRUMS]

The arch nemisis better not rare its ugly face................GLUE!

[mikekeswick]

Use collagen glue.
Pictures coming later of my attempt.....

[BowEd]

blackhawk...Last year or so I put horn on the belly of hickory that was bamboo backed a few times.First tillering the bamboo backed hickory to about 45 pounds first.64" bows,6"non working handles.Holmgaard designs.One eighth thicknesss of horn will give you at least 15 to 20 pounds more on the bow.I used smooth on glue and just sanded lengthwise with 36 grit on surfaces to be glued.It holds fast no problem,no wrapping with horn fading into fades and levers.Only about 4" of induced reflex though.Really don't think it needed to be bamboo backed either.A little more work than heat treating bellies,but still very durable and fast.The reason I tried horn was two fold the compression strength of horn being 4 times that of wood and the weather resistant quality of the smooth on and horn.I've seen your designs and finished bows on this forum and have no doubt your project will be a success.I'm gonna try some ironwood or I suppose it's hop hornbeam.Never tried it before.It's still drying.Might put horn on or heat treat the belly.Most of my bows are osage and hickory.I shoot a 28" draw around 55 pounds comfortably.I'm not a flight bow maker by no means but do like the 10 to 15 fps faster above standard shooting standard arrows.Now if I could just shoot those 30 yard shots in a 4 inch group consistently it would be nice.LOL.I've been tuning bamboo and spruce footed arrows with osage and have concluded the best bow in the world shooting a bad arrow won't look as good as a mediocre bow shooting a tuned arrow.LOL.Put the best of both worlds together and meat is made a lot more easily.Good luck with your project.

[BowEd]

Oh forgot to mention the horn glued on after tillering BBH stayed in tiller every time which is a nice.Trapping the horn and side tillering a bit helped and reduced limb weight.I've got a freind who's going to glue up a laminated bow handle and all using horn on back and belly.Edge ringed osage core.I'm skeptical of not sinewing the back or at least some flax on there as horn is not as good in tension as compression I told him but it's his baby,and since I've never done it that way before who am I to say it won't work.

[blackhawk]

Thanks for the support Bubby

Thanks for sharing your experiences beadman....sounds like a cool bow...ive been tossing around making a boo backed horn bow with a core too in this style with a lil more reflex than yours to compare the two....with a boo backing you can finish it up right away and not have to go thru the time sinew backing it,and waiting on it to cure......maybe after i get the sinew on this one,and while its curing ill attempt a boo backed one.....i think you could still pull the bow into lots of reflex with the boo and have it hold up,but ya might not retain as much reflex as a sinew backed one

One other thought ive been thinking is i wonder if a 60/40 ratio is too much,and the working limbs dont have enough power to throw the levers(the longer the levers the more power is needed to throw them)?....maybe a 50/50 is better....i still havent figured out what ratio works the best for lever bows cus they all shoot well

[Badger]

  Chris, I don't think 60/40 would be pusing it. I think your idea is great. The ultra light limbs would compliment a short working area closer to the handle, The closer you are bending to the handle the more energy you are storing. With ultra light limbs you are not paying the penalty for moving too much mass, I would give it a go.

[BowEd]

Sweet pulling bows are what I like and try to make all the time.I guess a more ambtious bow maker should have about a half dozen bows in the works to stay busy all the time so that waiting for sinew to cure is more bearable.LOL.Most of mine retain some resting reflex after settling in.I have a freind that is a quite a tester of his bows and found that with two same bamboo backed bows one with 1/2 inch of follow was only a couple fps slower than the other with 2 inches of reflex.I guess it's true that you really don't start losing much noticable cast speed until you have about 2 inches of follow or more.I hate any follow at all and am obsessed about having none at all.One of these days I'll do a sinew job and will probably get hooked by it.I need good sealing on that sinew for those foggy early morning deer hunts.LOL.

[blackhawk]

Thanks for your confirming thoughts on the 60/40 ratio steve...i think thats about as far as a ratio you could go before you wood get diminishing returns,cus any further and it wood be too much lever for a working limb to move,and wood be an underpowered lever. Like a 4 cylinder engine trying to move a semi rig to speak in an extreme analogy..lol. and i agree with getting my bend right up to the handle for proper energy storage


Beadman...the whole string follow argument is a huge misunderstanding by most...i could go on n on with plenty of examples and reasons why a bow with some string follow can outshoot a bow with a couple inches reflex,even when same wood and draw weight n length in different bows.....theres a ton of dynamics involving that. If you detest follow then youll absolutely love the end results of a properly made and tillered sinew backed bow....go for it,just use hide glue please

[mikekeswick]

Why not an HHB core? Its light, strong, and fast.

The cores properties as a self bow wood are pretty much irrelavent on a composite, it's really only acting as a stable gluing surface for the horn/sinew. What really matters is it's ability to accept glue well because the last thing you want is for the horn to delaminate. It's important that it isn't very dense to keep the overall weight of the limbs low. Hornbeam would probably work fine in my opion but it's just a bit dense.

Here is where i'm upto at the moment. I found a nice piece of locust to use for the levers! Maple working limbs and a lump of hickory for the handle. I've just got to fit the main limb/handle splices a bit better. Glue them up and then cut and glue the lever splices.Groove horn and limbs and glue up then reduce width and thickness of the core and then get it sinewed.
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr283/mikekeswick/P1000721.jpg
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr283/mikekeswick/P1000717.jpg
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr283/mikekeswick/P1000715.jpg

[blackhawk]

Its looking good mike...i see your gluing up the limbs to the handle setback....are you going to do the same when you glue in the levers? And are you going to slightly reflex the locust levers too prior to gluing them in?   Maybe splicing everything the way your doing is better than what i planned with one piece of wood as you can line everything up dead nuts straight,and glue it all together in setback instead of having to heat induce the shape??  Hmmmm....more questions to ponder....oh and what limb to lever ratio are you using?

[BowEd]

blackhawk....yes I agree I've had my eyes opened wider for a while now about the dynamics of bow making.Thanks to friend bowyers and the TBB series.Seemingly never ending path.Which is good.Yes hide glue would be my choice with sinew.Just gotta make sure to let it dry properly before tillering.LOL.Got some knox gelitan and rabbit hide glue.Wintertime by my wood stove with hickory and sinew and cabin fever seems the time for me to get after those type projects. Nothing as easy and durable as a well tillered self bow though.Mike's right about these cores and their functions.Dynamics there too with density etc.Good luck with your projects. Remember success or so called luck by some is where preperation and practice meet.Thanks for sharing.