Eastern red cedar bow questions

[Okla-archer]

Since this wood is everywhere and it is very beautiful on a finished bow I think Ill give it a try.  My concern is that according to TBB1 it takes very little set but it will fail explosively. It reccomends a limb width of 2" or 1 3/4" backed. What would be the most stable bow design for Eastern red cedar? I feel a pyramid style might suit this wood nicely.  If i were to make it a bit thinner than reccomended and crowned the belly would that work also? Also are there any issues with this wood? such as crystallizing or any issues with sap? Any and all advise would be appreciated!

Thanks guys
Joel

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

the sapwood is the best part, the heartwood although very pretty, is junk..  kinda defeats the purpose of a cedar bow in my eyes b\c the heartwood is the prettiest part.  but you can still make a good looking bow from it.  it really is good bow wood if it holds together for you.  over build it.  longer and wider than you normally would and backing is pretty important.  they are explosive when they let go.  I built 2 that are backed, and they are fine, the one that i didn't back was beautiful but let go after about 25 shots or so.  I havn't run into any crystal problems with it yet, but I try not to bend em real far either.  sap hasnt been a problem either

[blackhawk]

In my opinion and experiences the heartwood is better than the sapwood for a bows belly. It just depends on the particular piece of wood you have. But in most cases the heartwood will be better. The last one i made was 54" ntn,sinew backed,pyramid limbs,flipped tips,slight bend in the handle,tillered to 25". Sinew is the best backing for ERC in my opinion(if used correctly). I decrowned the sapwood down to sinew it and make sure id have heartwood in the belly. I can post a link to the bow if you want to see it for ideas.

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

see I've found the complete opposite as Blackhawk. I build 1 with heartwood in the belly and one with all sap wood and the one with all sapwood limbs is twice the performer as the with heartwood.  the heartwood i have worked is really brittle.  but could be differences in particular trees or regions too

[coaster500]

In my vast experience with ERC (two bows   ), I think that the individual stave dictates sapwood or heart wood...  my last bow is about 80/90% heartwood and really turned out right for me, but that stave compared to any type of wood was almost perfect and without defect. The first ERC was about 50/50 but the stave quality was not very good. Lot's of knots and twist. It shot but was a scary bow.

"For me" if I couldn't put some of that crazy looking red heart into the bow why bother, unless it's all you have available to you??? There are lots of other less finicky woods, even if not of the best quality to begin with

[blackhawk]

and the funny thing is none of us are wrong    all answers are correct ....it just depends on the certain piece of wood you have and being able to identify whats best for it

[Okla-archer]

Soooo... what your saying is I need to become the wood whisperer? 
The reason I asked is because I know some of you guys have made them and I really like there looks. I didn't expect it to preform like an Osage or a yew but I also don't want it to be a dud. 
Over the past couple days I've been helping some family clear off a new piece of property and there are about ~60 cedars laying in various piles ready to be burned and I thought I might put some of them to use.  none of them are really big enough to send off to a saw mill but, I thought I might be able to make a bow or two out of them.  Also there are some black jack oaks and maybe one elm.

Thanks for all the info. from what I hear I think I might try a pyramid style with 2" wide limbs and try and shoot for mid 60's length with a sinew, or I hear rawhide works decent too, backing. ( Maybe Ill try putting some alligator gar skin or paddle nose??over it.  Iv'e been curious about it )

[PaleoNinja]

Make an Ishi Bow with it! I suspect it would be great for that, I'd love to see some West Coast Recurves made of ERC

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

It definitely doesnt take much bullying before it screws the pooch.  the one cedar bow I broke, i took the good limb and steamed it a while to see what erc was capable of bending wise.  it look a little bit of curve, but it didnt take much before blowing up on the belly side..lol  as far as cedar goes, i will only make very small corrections in the future...just doesnt take the abuse like osage.

now as far as not being as good as osage, the latest sinew backed one i made (1st picture)  is a screamer. it stands side by side with my osage bow and probably outperforms a lot of them. it recovers superfast.  way faster than regular white woods.  its the all sapwood bow. the limbs are so light and it is super snappy. Had Donnie Wilkerson over and he shot my cedar bows as well as some osage bows and he was really surprised at how fast that cedar was even compared to osage.  And it's just a straight bow.  so after this one, I am really pro cedar sapwood. slow just isn't in this bow's vocabulary.

2nd pic is the longer one that has more heartwood in it.  its a pretty decent bow and I was impressed when i built it..but its no osage bow.  its about on average cast wise as hickory or elm...just lighter in your hand.  still a good hunting bow, but its not that sapwood bow by any means..lol

I'd say build one of each. make a sapwood bow and a heartwood bow and see which works best for you. when you cut it, peel the bark and seal it b\c the borers really like cedar bark and sapwood..lol   it really could be a regional thing. i havent work enough from different regions to know.  these staves all came from north west Alabama.

[coaster500]

Quote "I didn't expect it to preform like an Osage or a yew but I also don't want it to be a dud." 


Okla-archer as far as dud, if you get a bow out of it as twisted said it is a very fast wood and light as a feather. My ELB gives up nothing in the speed department....  one of each would be cool if you've got the wood...  I'll be watching for your side by side

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

I see a good test here....im liking this idea.   someone...maybe me...maybe not...lol  needs to build two bows exactly alike from sister staves. one with heartwood belly, one mostly sapwood. make them the same length and thickness and weight.  then sinew back and shoot through a crono.  i want to see this happen.  someone get started tomorrow so i dont have too    the Ultimate cedar test.. ...  alright, your talking me into it..i might have to do that one.. ... alright..alright..stop begging, I'll do it....lol        but seriously if someone else has some cedar staves and they want to do it too, get after it.  there isn't enough Cedar info out there for folks.

[blackhawk]

Id prob be game for that Ryan,but im currently out of ERC at the moment. If you do make sure you record the before and after profiles of each,and make sure both weigh pretty much the same in mass when your done. But even then,your results wouldnt be totally conclusive,they wood be just for that certain tree,but not for all the other trees/staves.

Theres prob not enough ERC info out there because most end in a break...lol

Awaiting your results

[Okla-archer]

  someone...maybe me...maybe not...lol  needs to build two bows exactly alike from sister staves. one with heartwood belly, one mostly sapwood. make them the same length and thickness and weight.

That sounds like a good idea.  I wont be able to do it immediately because of dry time but, ill follow your lead
those bows are beautiful too!  I'm excited about it

[M-P]

Howdy,  I won't say I'm an expert, but I have made several bows from ERC and the very closely related Rocky mountain juniper.  I've used staves and I've used kiln dried boards.  I really like the stuff.   I've backed with sinew, bamboo hickory and nothing at all.   I've not noted a difference between heart and sap wood.   The big difference is that some pieces are a lot more dense than others and can be made into narrower bows.   Ron

[Brock]

ERC is actually a juniper not a cedar...it has berries not cones for its seeds.

If I remember they talk about it in TBB 4 quite a bit as well....

All the ones around here I see are straight but have so many limbs on all sides....gonna look for one that has double trunk or is growing up against another one and mostly smooth on that side.