Mollegabet / Siyah Experiment

[Arrowind]

I haven’t posted anything for a while.  I’ve been building just haven’t gotten around to posting.  I’ve been so busy!  I hope to post some of the others I’ve been working on in the near future.

Here is a project I worked on back in December. 

I thought it would be cool to make a Mollegabet and replace the levers with siyahs.

Here’s what I learned:

•   Hickory DOES have limits.

•   A 4 inch v splice is incredibly strong.  I now have practical experience and feel very confident in using this splice if future situations call for it.

•   I need to learn how to back bows with sinew.  I think if I backed this one with sinew it would have had a good chance of holding together.  Then I could post pics of a working bow rather than a learning experience.   

•   I believe if I had shorter siyahs, a less aggressive angle, or longer working limbs chances for success should go up.

•   I need to learn how to build horse / Turkish / Hungarian / horn wood sinew composite bows.  I find myself more and more drawn to at least trying it.

•   I need to try this again.  I think it would be cool.


Thanks for taking a look.  Any comments are most appreciated.

[Arrowind]

More pics

[Prarie Bowyer]

Was it backed at all?  Board bow or single growth ring?

I'd think even a bamboo or fabric backing would be enough.

[half eye]

Arrowind,
      Ive made bunchs of Mollegabets and broke my fair share early on. That break looks to me to be a compression fracture. I aint there to measure your working limb thickness so this is only a guess, and I could be dead wrong......From the pics it appears that the working limb is fat coming out of both fades and most narrow in the middle (where it let go). By trying to be carefull not to hinge the limbs at the fades it is REALLY easy to get the center thinner than the rest....I've done exactly that on some of the earliest Molle's that broke and have been sensitive to that ever sense. Just a thought, believe it or not you can cause a hinge situation midlimb that just barely (or not at all) shows up on the tree....so they seem fine untill ya get them back far enough to critcal pressure and the concentrated tension overcomes the limb at it's weakest point.
       Not being critical, just trying to give some food for thought....sorry that it broke on ya, but it's gonna happen.
rich

[toomanyknots]

That sucks so bad. Looked so cool.

"I believe if I had shorter siyahs, a less aggressive angle, or longer working limbs chances for success should go up."

I agree totally. Also, I would fatten up the end of the siyah where it meets the limb to allow for good string contact as it is basically going to become a contact recurve (unless of course you decrease siyah angle that the siyahs do not touch, which would be cool / or add more working limb and brace it at a very high brace height. I agree that you should sinew back a bow like that, it is just begging for it! LOL You can also always do a linen backing if you don't feel like messing with sinew. Also, I think you should think about lengthening the siyahs opposed to shortening them, as longer siyahs means the limbs would have to work less to reach the same draw length. In effect that would stress the bow less. ( as well as make for a smoother draw,  ).

  Man that sucks it broke. The siyahs are just sweet, very cool design. In the past I have had bows like that brake, and I got mad and threw the whole thing in the garbage can. But then weeks later I would be making a bow and think "Man, I could sure use those siyahs now, I wish I hadn't thrown em away...  "), so you might wanna save it just to keep those wicked siyahs to use on another bow. Thank you for posting. It truely would of been awesome.

EDIT: Man, sometime if you ever felt like it, I would LOVE a buildalong of a v spilt, I have yet to try it out and your looks perfect! 

[mikekeswick]

Your options are to make it longer or with wider working limbs. The syhias don't need to be so chunky as it's surprising just how slender you can make them when everything is lined up well. To get your splices perfect cut them and sand/file until you can't get them better. Then steam for 30 minutes and fit together, clamping with only a small amount of pressure.

[Del the cat]

Great post, interesting comments too.
It's the sort of thing I've been meaning to get around to, not done a molly yet .
(Have made and Asiatic recurve with f/glass, spits on floor)
Shame it blew, but good to post this sort of stuff.
Cheers
Del

[Pappy]

Don't know anything about them but it was looking good,to bad on the break.
   Pappy

[lesken2011]

Interesting experiment that opens the door for other possibilities to try. Sorry it didn't work out. Hickory has a tendency to lull me into thinking it is almost unbreakable sometimes.

[RDK]

Sorry about the break--but I really appreciate your starting this thread--very helpful to me to see some of the causes of breaks and hear from others......

I think I learn the most from my "breaks.."  I just wish I could have packed them all into my first few bows to get it over with......

Anyway thanks again....

[DarkSoul]

Ive made bunchs of Mollegabets and broke my fair share early on. That break looks to me to be a compression fracture.
(...)

Compression? This looks like a classical example of a tension break to me. It's clearly on the back of the bow, with the belly still intact.
It looks like the grain was not good in this board. See this picture? This grain does not run parallel to the sides, but runs off the bottom side at an angle. I wonder if it would have held with better grain...
Still a really cool bow design Especially with slightly lighter siyahs.

[Arrowind]

Prarie Bowyer

This is or was from a board and was not backed at all.   

"I'd think even a bamboo or fabric backing would be enough."

I'm glad to hear you say that.  I wasn't sure if that type of backing would do the trick so I'm glad to hear someone say it could.  I had thought about backing it with burlap but didn't...I wonder if it would have held.

half eye

Thanks for taking the time to give me some input.  To read your comments makes me think you are spot on.  I haven't made very many Mollegabet bows but have heard that a common mistake is to have them bending too much near the fades and that it is a very common place for failure – Thinking back I was trying to be real careful to avoid that situation and sure enough too much of the work was being done by such a small portion of the working limb...

And by all means please be critical.  It’s very helpful.  I really want to learn more and you can’t do that by avoiding constructive criticism.  Thanks!

[Arrowind]

toomanyknots

“That sucks so bad. Looked so cool.”  -  Thanks man.   

“I would fatten up the end of the siyah where it meets the limb to allow for good string contact as it is basically going to become a contact recurve (unless of course you decrease siyah angle that the siyahs do not touch, which would be cool / or add more working limb and brace it at a very high brace height.”

Thanks for the insight for sure.  What I was attempting was making the loops in the string really long so it would almost straddle the siyahs and wrap around the contact point almost.  I was also trying to brace it a little higher than usual but I didn’t really get far enough to see if those ideas would work. If that idea didn’t turn out then I was going to consider gluing on some contact points or something…

“I agree that you should sinew back a bow like that, it is just begging for it! LOL”

Yeah that’s what I was thinking but I’ve never backed a bow with sinew so truthfully I’m a little intimidated by the idea….after seeing Gordon’s build along I’m feeling more confident about it.  I really want to get into doing some sinew backed bows I’ve just kind of been putting it off….it seems like quite a process.

“You can also always do a linen backing if you don't feel like messing with sinew.”
I’ve backed a few bows with burlap and really like it.  I like the natural fiber and the texture in my opinion is cool.   I wonder how it compares to linen or even silk….

I did actually think about backing this one with burlap but at the time I got a little over confident I think and thought it would be okay…

I wonder about backing it with another piece of hickory…..

 “I think you should think about lengthening the siyahs opposed to shortening them”

It’s funny you say that….I thought right after I clicked on “post” “wait shouldn’t they be longer??” 

“Man that sucks it broke. The siyahs are just sweet, very cool design.”

Thanks dude!

“In the past I have had bows like that brake, and I got mad and threw the whole thing in the garbage can. But then weeks later I would be making a bow and think "Man, I could sure use those siyahs now, I wish I hadn't thrown em away...  "), so you might wanna save it just to keep those wicked siyahs to use on another bow. Thank you for posting. It truely would of been awesome.”

I got mad when it broke and I think I went into shock but most of all I was really deflated…it took quite a bit of time and effort just to get to that point and I was sooooo close on the tiller…  I did run the bow through the band saw quite  a few times but actually did have the presence of mind to keep the siyahs.  I’ve actually already spliced them onto a couple of maple billets but now I’m thinking of taking them off and just trying this one again…..with a better piece of hickory and a backing….

EDIT: Man, sometime if you ever felt like it, I would LOVE a buildalong of a v spilt, I have yet to try it out and your looks perfect! 

I would but I don’t feel qualified to do a build along.  These are the very first v splices I’ve done….I just tried to line them up the best I could and cut the v out a little smaller / tighter than needed and then kept sanding and checking and sanding and checking until I got a close fit.  Then I glued it and clamped it and ended up with this...I’m amazed at how strong the joint is though.  It’s just amazing…I thought for sure if it failed it would have been one of the joints…


Thanks for your comments man!  I really appreciate it!

[Arrowind]

mikekeswick

Thanks man.  I used ash for the siyahs because it's not as dense and heavy to try and reduce the mass a little....the chunkyness is mostly just becuase I thought it looked cool.  Put I really appreicate you pointing that out I may try to narrow them a bit more.   

I never thought about steaming to get a better fit for the splice.  that's awesome!  Thanks for your help!

Del

Thanks!  I have only made a few Molles and I have yet to try a proper ELB    But I've seen many that you've posted and would love to try!

Pappy

Thanks Pappy!  I don't know much about them either...

[Arrowind]

lesken2011

Thanks!  yeah I think hickory is my security blanket....I completely understand what you mean.  I need to use some other kinds of wood to broaden my skills...I can hide behind hickory because it's so forgiving...I'm learning it's limits though. 


RDK

Thanks man.  I definately learn so much more from breaking bows than making them...In the end it makes you better...After several months and everyone's comments here.  I think I am up for round two.  thanks again.


DarkSoul

I was wondering if anyone was going to point that out.  I didn't really notice it until I was looking at the close up pic.  Amazing what you can see in a picture AFTER the fact.  I have some better peices with straight grain on all four sides... thinking of trying again.  Thanks for your comments!