Author Topic: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)  (Read 8885 times)

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Offline toomanyknots

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I found an article with some recent bow they found last december in a cave off the coast of california while surfing the web, they say it is Neanderthal old. Looks almost exactly like some old hunnic bows they found in niya china a while back. Here is a link to the article: http://submarinearchaeologytimes.blogspot.com/2011/12/after-50000-years-neanderthal-remains.html

Chinese bow:



California bow:



... :o

EDIT: Here is a link to that the page I found on those chinese bows if anybody was interested: http://www.atarn.org/chinese/miran/Bows%20and%20Arrows%20from%20Miran.html

EDIT #2: I edited my post to make it sound less stupid.  :laugh:
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 03:46:59 pm by toomanyknots »
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline Parnell

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Mmmm. I dunno about that...
Any valid citations.  No clue on the author.
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Offline Slackbunny

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That is pretty wild if its legitimate. I'd like to think that something I made would still be around 50000 years from now.

If that truly is a neanderthal bow I think it would be possible for it to predate true humans altogether. I believe I read that neanderthals were around before humans (I could be wrong on that though, its been a while), although we managed to outlast them, or wipe them out.

Crazy to think that at one point there could have been other species using cutting edge (literally) technology right alongside humans. Can you imagine a world where even one other species had made a go of it? Fun stuff to think about.

Offline toomanyknots

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Mmmm. I dunno about that...
Any valid citations.  No clue on the author.

I have no idea. I just thought it was crazy. The author of the blog is some guy names james, the article is pretty in depth, but I have no idea about the validity of any of it of course. Seems legit. From the article:

"SUBMARINE ARCHAEOLOGY HITS THE ARCHERY BULL'S-EYE.  Laboriously extracted from the Monterey Canyon (MC) underwater cave and now partially conserved, the fossilized Neanderthal hunting bow (above, & Figs. 6-7) is apparently an advanced 'recurve' design.  Not thought to have been produced until around 3K years BP, somewhere in Central Asia.  The bow's innovative configuration has stunned scientists and archery buffs everywhere.  PSR's anthropologist, an avid archer himself, George Westcort:  "What makes the Monterey Canyon bow so remarkable is not only its futuristic recurve shape.  And that it was likely made by the Neanderthal found with it.  Moreover, it predates all other unequivocal bow and/or arrow finds by over forty thousand years."  Wood decays rapidly, but the MC cave bow became petrified.  That allowed it to persist so later humans could one day find it.  But it also made it a daunting task to remove the bow with often unwieldy submersibles.  No matter how high-tech nor sophisticated those new subs may be.  Westcort:  "We couldn't carbon date the bow itself because it is completely fossilized.  But the skull and probable fireplace charcoal found with it sufficed for dating purposes.  Hammering, drilling, and sawing it out from its masonry tomb with the subs' manipulator arms was a formidable and exhausting task.  But the right arms on our new subs can do everything.  Short of threading a needle.  Finally though, the bow came out in several pieces.  More like chunks, or sections of a base-relief wall sculpture.  Where a good portion of the underlying wall must come out with it.  And remain attached thereto forever.  To visually isolate the bow's profile from its permanently affixed substrate, we photographed it with blue screen imaging.  It's a tricky process, but it eventually produced the black background we desired for pictorial purposes.  In other words, it will never be a bow that one can pick up and examine like a bow in an archery store.  And much work still has to be done on it towards a reasonably professional exhibit."

That is pretty wild if its legitimate. I'd like to think that something I made would still be around 50000 years from now.

If that truly is a neanderthal bow I think it would be possible for it to predate true humans altogether. I believe I read that neanderthals were around before humans (I could be wrong on that though, its been a while), although we managed to outlast them, or wipe them out.

Crazy to think that at one point there could have been other species using cutting edge (literally) technology right alongside humans. Can you imagine a world where even one other species had made a go of it? Fun stuff to think about.

It sure makes me feel good to know a Neanderthal could make a cooler looking bow than me...  :laugh: I wish it showed the front profile as well, I just assumed the inner limbs were wide.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 03:44:29 pm by toomanyknots »
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline Weylin

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Re: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 03:49:01 pm »
I share Parnell's skepticism. I'm no scientist but that just doesn't strike me as plausible. For one, Neandrathals lived in Europe, not the Americas. I'd have to do more research before I tried to refute any specific claims but the whole thing seems off. The picture of the dive seemed photoshopped and hoaky.  I'm sure if there was a discovery of this magnitude that shattered so many long held understandings of pre-history then there would be more substantial and credible sources for it. If you come up with more about it, I'd be interested to see it.

Offline dmikeyj

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Re: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2012, 03:52:23 pm »
No comment on the bow per se, but on Pangaea and us...

Pangaea began to break up around 200 million years ago.  The dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago.  This is why we see such a wide dispersal of nearly identical dinosaurs from the Triassic to the beginnings of the Jurassic periods (230-200 million years ago).  We as a species (homo sapiens sapiens) came about only around 200 thousand years ago (Omo remains dated at 196k years old).
Also, while Pangaea was together, the NE coast was China, and the west coast was North America.  They did not touch each other at any time.

As for a Chinese type bow in the Pacific near America- could have come from anywhere- the Chinese did sail alot way back when, and the dating could very well be suspect, as carbon dating is not so good for younger finds, as well as the sea bottom containing differing amounts of Carbon-14 than the majority of dry land, which can throw off the dating by principle.

Also, Neanderthals were known to exist along side Homo Sapiens, and we have even now shown through DNA testing of Neanderthal remains that we modern humans have Neanderthal genes.  But, the youngest known Neanderthal remains are 32 thousand years old, though there is fire evidence in Gibraltar that suggests some Neanderthals were around as late as 24 thousand years ago.

Whew.

Neanderthals did not use bows, they used spears, and big, beefy spears at that.  We are here largely in part to our (Homo Sapiens) use of smaller diameter spears that were much better for distance hunting.  Neanderthals were stronger than us bodywise, but even they could not throw their spears with any aim.  The spears they used were more of the pike type for close-in hunting.  Dangerous stuff, hunting mammoths close up...

Offline Del the cat

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Re: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2012, 03:53:34 pm »
Sounds fishy to me.
How come it was preserved? V little Horn or Sinew survived on the mary Rose, yet we are to believe it all survived here long enough to become petrified?
Del
Health warning, these posts may contain traces of nut.

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2012, 04:04:26 pm »
No comment on the bow per se, but on Pangaea and us...

Pangaea began to break up around 200 million years ago.  The dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago.  This is why we see such a wide dispersal of nearly identical dinosaurs from the Triassic to the beginnings of the Jurassic periods (230-200 million years ago).  We as a species (homo sapiens sapiens) came about only around 200 thousand years ago (Omo remains dated at 196k years old).
Also, while Pangaea was together, the NE coast was China, and the west coast was North America.  They did not touch each other at any time.

As for a Chinese type bow in the Pacific near America- could have come from anywhere- the Chinese did sail alot way back when, and the dating could very well be suspect, as carbon dating is not so good for younger finds, as well as the sea bottom containing differing amounts of Carbon-14 than the majority of dry land, which can throw off the dating by principle.

Also, Neanderthals were known to exist along side Homo Sapiens, and we have even now shown through DNA testing of Neanderthal remains that we modern humans have Neanderthal genes.  But, the youngest known Neanderthal remains are 32 thousand years old, though there is fire evidence in Gibraltar that suggests some Neanderthals were around as late as 24 thousand years ago.

Whew.

Neanderthals did not use bows, they used spears, and big, beefy spears at that.  We are here largely in part to our (Homo Sapiens) use of smaller diameter spears that were much better for distance hunting.  Neanderthals were stronger than us bodywise, but even they could not throw their spears with any aim.  The spears they used were more of the pike type for close-in hunting.  Dangerous stuff, hunting mammoths close up...

I knew that was really stupid when I posted it. lol About the bow, I have no idea yall, just found the article and thought it was crazy.
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline Parnell

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Re: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2012, 04:39:36 pm »
I'd say whomever put this together needs a new hobby! 
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Offline Bryce

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Re: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2012, 05:41:51 pm »
hmm..... looks to Asiatic. if Neanderthals could make such a sophisticated weapon they would probably be around.

LONG LIVE THE HUMAN RACE!!!!!!! BOOMTOWN!........coffee. i love this forum so much. thank you for posting this its really interesting.


if i had to take a guess i would say some asian dude sailed there, forgot his bow and the neanderthal guy found it or something idk just a guess kind of goes along side dmikeyj.

carbon dating is wildly inaccurate
I'd say whomever put this together needs a new hobby! 

 

agreed
Clatskanie, Oregon

UserNameTaken

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Re: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 05:46:41 pm »
Gaddafi sort of looked like a Neanderthal. Maybe they're still among us. Google his picture & tell me there wasn't some Neanderthal floating around in there.

Offline Bryce

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Re: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2012, 06:02:43 pm »
Gaddafi sort of looked like a Neanderthal. Maybe they're still among us. Google his picture & tell me there wasn't some Neanderthal floating around in there.

hahahahahahahaha i guess you could say the same about Nick Nulte
Clatskanie, Oregon

UserNameTaken

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Re: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 06:14:32 pm »
Nulte's might be an albino Neanderthal. I could definitely see that.

Offline loefflerchuck

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Re: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2012, 07:26:26 pm »
funny! Must have been aliens.

Offline Cameroo

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Re: Old reflexed molly bow found in california cave (anybody see this?)
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 11:51:09 pm »
Seems funny that a guy would have a blog with only one post in it...

I'm with Weylin - the dead give-away of it being a hoax is the "photo" of the dive site.  If that's not a photoshopped picture, I don't know what is.