Few locust q's

[Pat B]

Mike, I have to disagree with you. I'm sure quick dried wood can make a very good bow but IMO and in my experience quick dried wood is not as stable and is more susceptable to set and possibly fretting.
 One good example I have is a 60" osage static recurve I built a few years ago. I bought the stave at the end of May and it was cut May 1 of that year. By the first part of July I had the bow shooting. When I started working the wood it felt dry, sounded and worked like dry wood. After a bit of shooting the bow began to take set and developed a hinge and frets in the hinge.  I set the bow aside and a few months later I added a belly lam and fixed the bow.
  This is only the 2nd osage bow that I have ever gotten frets on. I know each piece of wood is different and my observations are not scientific but it is good enough for me to wait for the wood to be well dried and seasoned before I build a bow with it.

[JackCrafty]

A lot of guys swear by "seasoned" wood.  Personally, I like using wood that has been sitting around for years but I've used "car dried" and "hot box" wood and I can't say that I've noticed much difference.  But there is a difference.

The difference is this:  the bowyer.

Some guys can immediately smell, feel, and know the difference between old wood and new wood, good wine and great wine, premium gas and regular, etc.  I can't.

Dry some locust fast and dry the rest slowly.  Make bows out of the quickly dried wood first.  When you get around to making some bows out of seasoned locust, see if you can tell the difference.  Then make your decision.

 

[mikekeswick]

Mike, I have to disagree with you. I'm sure quick dried wood can make a very good bow but IMO and in my experience quick dried wood is not as stable and is more susceptable to set and possibly fretting.
 One good example I have is a 60" osage static recurve I built a few years ago. I bought the stave at the end of May and it was cut May 1 of that year. By the first part of July I had the bow shooting. When I started working the wood it felt dry, sounded and worked like dry wood. After a bit of shooting the bow began to take set and developed a hinge and frets in the hinge.  I set the bow aside and a few months later I added a belly lam and fixed the bow.
  This is only the 2nd osage bow that I have ever gotten frets on. I know each piece of wood is different and my observations are not scientific but it is good enough for me to wait for the wood to be well dried and seasoned before I build a bow with it.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one then.
I have never noticed any difference...maybe your osage just wasn't dense enough for your width/design. If a hinge devolps a fret then it was overstrained - hence the hinge! If it started to take set after tillering during shooting then shooting the bow was putting it under more stress than tillering was IMO.
I've made black locust bows from wood cut 2 weeks prior that shot around 175 - 180fps at 10 grains per pound...but it was dry and if anything was going to fret then b.locust would! I stand by the fact that wood is inanimate and doesn't KNOW wether it has been dried for 2 weeks or 10 years it simply reacts to the stresses put on it and the reaction is largely down to the mc. If quick drying damaged wood then timber companies wouldn't use kiln's to dry it.
What do you mean by not as stable?

[PEARL DRUMS]

Druid I peeled the bark off and cleaned the back up to one ring. Its heavily sealed again with poly.  I must admit Druids methid is attractive to me because of my tendancy to not want to go slow! We shall see what my back looks like in a few weeks. If its not split open by then Im thinking it wont. Thanks for ALL the replies guys, I appreciate it!

[gmc]

I have found BL to be pretty well behaved drying naturally. The fact that its not prone to twisting or cracking (my area, anyways) could either explain the woods slow release of moisture or low moisture retention in the wood itself. I've never quick dried BL but have used it pretty quick after harvest without waiting years, but I always do size a stave down over the course of weeks that normally allows that little extra dry time at a lower mass level. And I will always leave the bark on right up to show time.

When I first started building bows I played around a lot with quick drying wood, Hickory in particular, and I could take a stave from harvest to a bow in a matter of weeks. I had a really good hot box that I used in conjunction with a dehumidifier. I would circulate 110 degree air @ about 25% humidity. I was pretty new to bow building back then but they made pretty darn good bows. I have since used out of that same batch of wood and really see no difference. Actually the quick dried stuff worked a little better as the moisture levels were always lower in my humid climate. But there is always that little thought in your mind about what is happening to the wood as it being force dried as opposed to drying naturally (that rapid release thing going on). Its really hard to quantify the end result.

I would rather have naturally seasoned stave to work with but I won't let quick drying a piece of wood slow me down either.

Sorry for being off topic a bit, but moisture always makes for a good discussion.

[Gus]

Cool Thread!
Watching and learning.

Thank You Y'all!

-gus

[Pat B]

Mike, in my experiences I have found bow woods that are not seasoned well will take set more readily and doesn't seem to hold the corrections that were made with heat.   For the last 8 or 10 years I've had well seasoned wood readily available so I rarely use freshly cut wood for bows. The reason I made the 60" osage static when I did was because it was an extra piece from a stave I bought to build another bow.(Herb's Bow)
  I make hardwood shoot arrows also and I know that I can build a good arrow from a freshly cut shoot in a week or less using under my wood stove as a dryer and tempering oven. Generally an arrow like this will have to be re-straightened occasionally. If I allow the shoot to season for a year or more, the arrow made from it will remain as straight as when I first made it.
  One of the cool things about this website is we all do things a little different and use methods that are a bit different so the new guys coming along can glean the info best suited for him(or her) to achieve their goal. There is no right or wrong way of doing things. The guys that got together to compile the TBB series of books challenged  time tested rules about building wood bows but were successful with their efforts. After TBBI came out and more and more folks began building wood bows and experimenting on their own.  TBBIV was written to change some of the original thoughts about building wood bows(ie. Design and Performance). Why, because more folks experimented and came up with different legitimate results. 
   Without these debates we'd all be using only premium osage or high altitude yew staves for bows because no other wood is worth the attempt to build a bow...which we all know is a fallacy.

[Sparrow]

When I was a kid down in South Carolina,I worked with my Grandpa who was a Master carpenter. We salvaged wood whenever possible from old buildings that were being torn down. He worked at all kinds of carpentry and was a cabinet maker as well. He taught me alot about wood and working wood on new wood and on old wood. I can tell you that wood that has been around a long time works,feels,smells,takes a finish different than wood that is dried in a kiln. Not saying it is better or worse,just different.  Say; lighter wood for instance, longleaf pine . I think wood does more than gain or loose moisture, I think there are chemical changes that occur, maybe down to a molecular level, subtle changes occur.  Or not   Old wood often planes like butter as opposed to kiln dried that does not. Same species from the same country. I don't claim to know anything except I love old seasoned hardwood

[mikekeswick]

I totally agree that wood that isn't seasoned well will take set more readily  
Maybe I should make a bow from a stave that was cut yesterday and start another thread
I've also made quite a few shoots arrows and not just trying to be annoying but i've never found any shoot shafts to stay straight forever even when seasoned for a long time, the best i've found have been viburnum shoots, although cane doesn't seem to need re-straightening.
I wholeheartly agree that it's good to debate and have places to do it. I love a good decussion but most of my friends just glaze over when I talk about bows!
Good luck to you Pearl with your b.locust....I wish I had more!

[artcher1]

I think being both a bowyer and an arrow maker you will have a totally different perspective on wood's working properties. I often mention that you'll learn more about bow wood by first making arrows from the wood . First thing you'll learn is that fresh but dried wood is not the same as seasoned wood. I remember Tim Baker chastising me about mentioning this very subject some years ago. But there's one thing that I am that Tim's not, and thats an arrow maker. And the more arrows (and bows) I make the greater my resolve on this subject.

[artcher1]

My experience with shoot arrows is totally different than yours Mike. I wait until the shoot is well seasoned then do my final straightening. Stored correctly (vertically) they stay straight year after year. You must be using fresh shoots for you arrow .........Art

[Pat B]

I have sourwood shoot arrows that are 4 or 5 years old, have been shot hundreds of times and are as straight as they were the day I made them and never had to straighten them after the initial straightening.   My cane arrows are not as consistant however the ones Art made for me are consistant, straight and shoot well from my hunting bows.

[PEARL DRUMS]

Since its my thread I will allow this hi-jacking you primitive pirates! I will use whatver is dry or seasoned, matters not to me. This is merely food for thought for the seasoned doesnt matter side of the debate. During and after drying does wood not start decomposing? Obviously some varieties faster than others. Perhaps the diff between dried and seaosned is the partially decomposed cells are more compacted or shrunk than the dried only cells? Just food for thought with ZERO background on decomposistion of any woods. I have never worked wood over 2-3 yrs old so I have no clue what seasoned wood even does or acts like under tools.

[Pat B]

Pearlie, wood will last indefinately if the M/C is such that the wood eaters can't survive.

[PEARL DRUMS]

Well then, I 'd like to us my "jump a question" Pat!