Stone points: wide or narrow?

[billy]

Hey everyone,

  I just showed my brother a stone point I made for my upcoming pig hunt.  It's narrow, only  5/8" wide and about 1 1/2" long.  My brother looked at it and said "Dude, make your hunting points wider.  You want a good hole so you get a good blood trail."  But I've also read that narrower points have a higher mechanical advantage when it comes to penetrating. I know pigs have a cartilidge plate that protects their vitals and I'm afraid that a wide stone point will affect penetration. I'm shooting rivercane arrows weighing between 520 and 650 grains.  Anyone have any experience or input on this?

[Hillbilly]

I've always read that narrow points get better penetration, but the law here requires hunting points to be at least 7/8" wide. Most of the old arrow points I find around here are narrower than that, many of them are just tiny little triangles less than a half inch long and wide. The people that made those depended on them for their groceries, so I assume that they worked.

[mullet]

   I make my hunting points an inch wide and about 2 3/4" long.The last hog I shot I hit in front of the left hip and traveled to the right shoulder. Nothing was sticking out but about 6" of arrow with fletching.The pig was facing away from me.The point was made from Burn's obsidean.Pictures of my arrows are on the old web site.

[billy]

Mullet,

I searched the old site and couldn't find your pics or your post.  If you could repost them on this new site that would be great.  If not, then you should go kill another one so you can post the pics!! 

What kind of damage did the point suffer?  What did you use for arrows?  How much did your bow pull?  How far did the pig go before it fell over?

[mullet]

  Billy the point is the one on the far right.I didn't recover the pig or arrows.The first shot was a gut shot I'm sorry to say.Chris Cade and I blood trailed and chased this pig for about 3 hrs in circles in 6 to 8 foot high palmettos.I was shooting a 55#.The second shot was from less than 10Yds,You should have heard the impact.With the point that big it still only weighed a 110 grns.

[jamie]

i liked narrow for penetration but a wider head on a deer does more damage in the animal than if you just punched a hole through it. a buddy i hunted with last year was using the simmons land sharks heads. i couldnt believe the damage that head did. there was snow on the ground and it looked like a murder scene. the deer went 30 yards and there was a bllod trail 20' wide the whole way. im for big heads now. peace

[MattE]

As Hillbilly stated, the artifacts.stone arrow points, were small and were known by the name, bird points. They were very small points. The points that weighed 80 grains or more were generally atlatl points.Whether this is due to the length of the arrows used or the poundage of the bows being low is up for debate. What is known about the south eastern tribes is that two bows were used ,one for war, 70# to 80#, and one for hunting. 30# to 45#.This leads some to think both type points were used for their bows.The consensus of the archeologist, at the present time, is as Hillbilly stated small points for bows and the larger ones for atlatls. I am still perplexed due to the heavy poundage bows used by tribes for war.such as the Cherrokee and Tuscarora preferred.If anyone has any documented information on this subject, please post it. I am most interested in this subject.     

[mullet]

   Matte,One of the best explanation's I've heard is in modern times,Look at how much game has been killed with a 22'rifle.Whether poaching or legaly.Small points could be made quick and easy by any one.It doesn't take much skill to make a small point from a discarded flake quickly.Like buying a $3.50 box of 22's from China-Mart

[Coo-wah-chobee]

Hey billy-just came across this post -im late again-maybe i should stop browsing on the board? ok-here goes-my points are made from wash state obsidian that a friend sent me-like 150 lbs of rock from freight co!I make points like mullets -rather long 2.5"longx1"wide.I agree with jamie and others that a wider point does more damage. As far as penetration goes i was taught a trick by on old indian years ago.He happened to be seminole-but as you know seminoles came to florida from the northwest and were originally part of the creek nation-So this was explained to me that the trick comes from the old creek tradition and was kept alive because it made sense.Once point is made GREASE IT with hog lard or deer fat-i know it sounds silly but it WORKS. I have done penetration tests with this system and it shows you get better penetratioin-like much better.OK-you say -but why-glass cutters will tell you to oil or grease the glass cutter to lubricate the carbide wheel so it will roll smoothly! What the real reason is is that the oil lubricates the glass NOT the cutter.I found this out by pestering a glazier friend of mine.So I saw once again that modern technology just proves what was common knowledge 100 or thousands of years ago!Another thing I do is to wrap the sinew in a criss-cross pattern across the head also I use pine pitch with charcoal over to protect from moisture cause its so damp down here and I DEARLY LOVE to hunt in the rain.Pinepitch comes from fla longleaf pine and charcoal from -duh-I forget--haha

[Coo-wah-chobee]

hey Mullet-just wanted to compliment you on your stone points-I know this is late just came across the post.Nice worh bob

[SteveO]

 I always believed the stone "bird points" were used for hunting whatever game they scared up. Think about the physics involved. Whatever distance a 1 inch head will penetrate, a 1/2 inch head will penetrate twice as far, given the same kinetic energy and target composition. You have cut the same amount of material in both cases, one is wider and one is deeper. We all know how important an exit wound can be when you are trailing. I believe a narrower head was used to give the best penetration with the bows which may not have been real heavy draw weight bows. It's the same principle with my self bows. I shoot a 2 blade homade head. If I wanted to use one of those expanding monstrosities some of the compound shooters use, I wouldn't get enough penetration to be effective. A wider head is better only if you are shooting enough bow to give adequate penetration.

Steve

[mullet]

 Pubaman,Thanks for the compliment.Instead of pine pitch,I waterproof with TB3.Saw the longleaf pine remark,you from Fl?Eddie

[Coo-wah-chobee]

 Hey mullet --yes-from florida-down south way -about 40 miles north of myiama-too damm close as i have said before-bob

[jamie]

ed i was just browsing through this again and saw your points. first thing is i wish i knapped as well as you. second ive checked front of center with a field point at 125 on an arrow and then hafted on a 1oogr stone point. f.o.c. was the same. by the time you add pitch or epoxy and sinew you bring the weight up another 20-30 grains. i like big points a lot now. even though ive killed with smaller points the damage and drop time from a big point is so much better. if i was  in an abo situation id use what i had. but seeing as i have a choice i go with large . i just posted a deer i took with a stone point that was 1.25 wide and 2.5 long. the deer was done in 30 yards. ive killed deer with compounds before and most of them with perfect hits have travelled a minimum of 70 yards some much further. a large point be it steel or stone on a heavy shaft just does so much damage. the deer i dropped this morning wasnt a great shot. mid organs, no grass bag, but it devasted the liver. plus i prefer when it doesnt pass through so it can do more damage. this shot went through and still had enough force to destroy the point on a rock even after breaking a rib on the exit. im not trying to tell people how to hunt just giving my experience. sorry to ramble and repeat myself but there is nothing like the damage from a large point. peace

p.s. one other thing about large points is the noise on impact. its gut wrenching. you can hear it punch through everything.

[mullet]

  Puba,Understand about Miami,Did anybody ever bring the flag when they left? :(I used to live in Lakeworth in '79,dove the Delray Ledge and Ship wreck alot.I live in Lakeland,3 hours north.Come on up or I could head your way.Except it's wet where you guy's hunt.