Author Topic: How many strands in a string.  (Read 23951 times)

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Offline bow-toxo

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2011, 01:23:24 am »
[

 No more from me.  8)
[/quote]

Good news at last.

Offline adb

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2011, 02:23:11 am »
 8)

Offline Ian.

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2011, 10:21:10 am »
Craig,

Your the one who is trying to draw similarities between the two.


Ian
ALways happy to help anyone get into heavy weight archery: https://www.facebook.com/bostonwarbowsbows/

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2011, 12:17:31 am »
I suggest you look at your statement again, we are much closer to the medieval period than Otzi's time was to it, and even with our advantage of the written record, we still have virtually no idea how the medieval string was made.
Craig.
Craig—I think we do have an ides of how mediaeval strings were made. If no one has a realistic reason for a 15th century archer to have lied when mentioning a three strand string, and we know the thickness from the size of MR nocks, we have a basic thin rope. We know there was a loop at one end. We see the nocks cut in bows to accommodate a loop. Lartdarcherie specifies that it should be tight. We know from Ascham that the tail end that was tied in a “bending” of “more than one wap” was reinforced. What is the part that we don’t know? I don’t think the manufacture of strings had to go through many changes. I think improved materials were sourced. Certainly you don’t dispute the many sources that list the materials as linen, silk and hemp? The linen strings of this type continued in use until the death of the Flemish maker of the Flemish strings in the early 20th century.

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2011, 07:12:46 am »
Erik,
Quote
Craig—I think we do have an ides of how mediaeval strings were made. If no one has a realistic reason for a 15th century archer to have lied when mentioning a three strand string, and we know the thickness from the size of MR nocks, we have a basic thin rope. We know there was a loop at one end. We see the nocks cut in bows to accommodate a loop. Lartdarcherie specifies that it should be tight. We know from Ascham that the tail end that was tied in a “bending” of “more than one wap” was reinforced. What is the part that we don’t know? I don’t think the manufacture of strings had to go through many changes. I think improved materials were sourced. Certainly you don’t dispute the many sources that list the materials as linen, silk and hemp? The linen strings of this type continued in use until the death of the Flemish maker of the Flemish strings in the early 20th century.

I know you have strong feelings on this subject and I have read the information you have put on both your own and Alan Blackham's site. I have to disagree with the conclusions, you conclude that the string is made up as any twisted cord is/was made, however that conclusion completely disregards the numerous references to "water glew" and that the secret of how they were made died with the last make in Belgium.

If we believe the references water glue, were the strands twisted as in the modern "Flemish Twist" string and then this glue was applied or were the separate fibers stuck together, or was some other method used? We just don't know and until we have something better to go on than one reference in a book, written by an unknown French Provincial in 1515, which not only states that a good string is made of three strands but also that good string is gummed not glued and that silk is the best material to make strings out of because one made that way"is so springy that it propels the arrow further and with greater force than when made of any other material. Now the part regarding gummed not glued is clearly at odds with other authors who talk of the use of water glue, and the bit concerning springy strings is utter rot and could not be written by anyone who knew the subject on which he writes. So this Author and what he writes is in my opinion very suspect.

In addition to the doubts raised by the above there is also the thought that if the strings were merely simple cord twists such cords and their method of manufacture would be readily recognized by the people of the time so why do we find numerous expressions of ignorance as to the manufacturing process.

Therefore while we may have ideas as to how medieval strings were made we do not conclusively know anything.

By the way I believe the Flemish maker of strings died before the 20th Century as I'm sure I have documents referring to him and his death written before 1900.

As for "we know the materials", you are referring to a very short period in the middle ages, we have little no idea of what was used in the early middle ages or if you prefer the dark ages, when probably your and some of my ancestors parted company 500 to 1000 AD, nor do we know if the hemp/flax string was used exclusively as opposed to the use of strings from animal tissues such as gut, sinew and hide. I would also remind you that in one of your posts you refer to the part in Tox that says ""Eustathius, upon this verse of Homer, doth tell, that in old time, they made their bow-strings of bullocks' thermes, which they twined together as they do ropes". Thermes are tendons or if you prefer sinews. so there is another material to consider, along with gut and rawhide. All of which are string materials used throughout the world, why not England?


So I find myself tending towards agreeing with adb on this and until more conclusive evidence comes to light I will state we do not know fully how the medieval bow string was made.

Craig.



 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 07:57:25 am by CraigMBeckett »

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2011, 07:19:20 am »
Ian,

I see you edited your post on the distances in time to reverse the original meaning, it seems you do take notice of what is being said.

Craig.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 07:55:47 am by CraigMBeckett »

Offline bow-toxo

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2011, 07:21:05 pm »
[quote
I know you have strong feelings on this subject and I have read the information you have put on both your own and Alan Blackham's site. I have to disagree with the conclusions, you conclude that the string is made up as any twisted cord is/was made, however that conclusion completely disregards the numerous references to "water glew" and that the secret of how they were made died with the last make in Belgium.

If we believe the references water glue, were the strands twisted as in the modern "Flemish Twist" string and then this glue was applied or were the separate fibers stuck together, or was some other method used? We just don't know and until we have something better to go on than one reference in a book, written by an unknown French Provincial in 1515, which not only states that a good string is made of three strands but also that good string is gummed not glued and that silk is the best material to make strings out of because one made that way"is so springy that it propels the arrow further and with greater force than when made of any other material. Now the part regarding gummed not glued is clearly at odds with other authors who talk of the use of water glue, and the bit concerning springy strings is utter rot and could not be written by anyone who knew the subject on which he writes. So this Author and what he writes is in my opinion very suspect.

In addition to the doubts raised by the above there is also the thought that if the strings were merely simple cord twists such cords and their method of manufacture would be readily recognized by the people of the time so why do we find numerous expressions of ignorance as to the manufacturing process.

Therefore while we may have ideas as to how medieval strings were made we do not conclusively know anything.

By the way I believe the Flemish maker of strings died before the 20th Century as I'm sure I have documents referring to him and his death written before 1900.

As for "we know the materials", you are referring to a very short period in the middle ages, we have little no idea of what was used in the early middle ages or if you prefer the dark ages, when probably your and some of my ancestors parted company 500 to 1000 AD, nor do we know if the hemp/flax string was used exclusively as opposed to the use of strings from animal tissues such as gut, sinew and hide. I would also remind you that in one of your posts you refer to the part in Tox that says ""Eustathius, upon this verse of Homer, doth tell, that in old time, they made their bow-strings of bullocks' thermes, which they twined together as they do ropes". Thermes are tendons or if you prefer sinews. so there is another material to consider, along with gut and rawhide. All of which are string materials used throughout the world, why not England?


So I find myself tending towards agreeing with adb on this and until more conclusive evidence comes to light I will state we do not know fully how the medieval bow string was made.

Craig.

/quote]

Craig--Archers, dismayed at the death of their Flemish stringer, took their strings apart and clearly saw how they were made. The French archer’s preference was gum rather than the water glue with which he was also familiar enough to mention. What could the water glue have been ? Something soluble in water,  of course.  Gelatine would fill the bill and is known to have been used on post mediaeval strings, and is used as a glue by members of this forum. A stiffener, it would of course be allied to the finished string. You misquote the Frenchman. He wrote “properly made”, not “made that way”. Tox, a scholar who credits introduction of British archery to the Saxons,  mentioning “bullock’s thermes” as used by ancient Greeks clearly knows of no more contemporary use of that material. I haven’t come across any expressions of ignorance of the manufacturing process, other than on this forum. Any examples ?

                                                                                                     Erik

Offline CraigMBeckett

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2011, 11:41:11 pm »
Erik,

Quote
Craig--Archers, dismayed at the death of their Flemish stringer, took their strings apart and clearly saw how they were made. The French archer’s preference was gum rather than the water glue with which he was also familiar enough to mention. What could the water glue have been ? Something soluble in water,  of course.  Gelatine would fill the bill and is known to have been used on post mediaeval strings, and is used as a glue by members of this forum. A stiffener, it would of course be allied to the finished string. You misquote the Frenchman. He wrote “properly made”, not “made that way”. Tox, a scholar who credits introduction of British archery to the Saxons,  mentioning “bullock’s thermes” as used by ancient Greeks clearly knows of no more contemporary use of that material.

Erik all you say is supposition not proven fact, this is the downfall of your claims, you suppose something is so and then state that it is not that it may be, even if it is likely it is not known fact. With regard to people pulling stings apart and learning how to make them, read the quote from Duff below.

I was not in fact quoting the Frenchman at that stage but paraphrasing what he said. The quote begins just after that statement and concerns his ridiculous statement on springy silk strings. Are you implying that his "properly made" silk string was not made that way when he himself say it was so?

Quote
I haven’t come across any expressions of ignorance of the manufacturing process, other than on this forum. Any examples ?

If you have not come across "any expressions of ignorance of the manufacturing process", I suggest you need to expand your reading habits and look to contemporary writers.

As for doubt being expressed only on this forum, I think you exaggerate, you are a member of at least one other forum where the same doubts form of have been raised and where at least one of the members has, I believe, written of testing glued not twisted strings, the forum I have in mind is Paleoplanet. I would also suggest you join one of the British forums and have a look at their "Traditional Archery forums.

I also have to ask the question that even if the doubt has only been raised on these forums, is not a doubt raised that you cannot absolutely refute?

As I read through my collection and come across the statements I shall let you know where they are made, they must all be statements made in books written in the 20th and 21st Centuries as prior to that books tended to be written by people of substance who would never dream of making strings and besides the Flemish makers were still in existence. From memory I seem to recall such statements made in the books by the contemporary Authors Strickland, Hardy, Soar, of the earlier but still recent authors, one that springs to mind is James Duff who on page 80 of his "Bows and Arrows" says this:

"Much has been written on the subject of making bowstrings. Perhaps because for over 500 years the Belgian bowstring makers have had an almost complete monopoly on the bowstring business. That this has inspired the writing of meaningless instructions may or may not be so. Surely it would have been more risky had the Belgian method been common knowledge and capable of adoption. Still, there have been some practical directions published : for the world war taught the archer the value of acquiring a measure of the art, so long kept secret on Belgium, handed down from one generation to another in the same families. And should the reader wonder that nobody could learn the secret from examining and even dissecting the Belgian strings, let me say this. I have submitted Belgian Bowstrings to the very best American makers of hand-laid linen fishing lines, which have been made the same way, by the same families, for more than one hundred years. The world record lines, famous for their excellence: twisted out of flax as a bowstring is made. And yet these expert line makers could not duplicate the Belgian Bowstring. "It is the queerest thing I never saw", said the head of business, a man over sixty years of age who all his life has been an expert in the making of hand-laid lines". The passage goes on to say that the strands used are extremely long. then tells how to make a substitute but one that is not equal to the Belgium string. Duff essentially says the string is formed by twisting and uses extremely long fibres and makes no mention of glue and as this book was published in 1927 way past the date of major use therefore it is even possible that the string made by the Flemish string maker was different to the strings used in the middle ages. We just do not know.

Craig.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 12:29:42 am by CraigMBeckett »

Offline Ian.

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2011, 10:52:13 am »
Ian,

I see you edited your post on the distances in time to reverse the original meaning, it seems you do take notice of what is being said.

Craig.

Yes, that was a typo. As far as the discussion I think all that can be said has now been said shall we put this one to rest.
ALways happy to help anyone get into heavy weight archery: https://www.facebook.com/bostonwarbowsbows/

Offline Phil Rees

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2011, 07:42:12 pm »
Hello, Friends
All the bows in my past have never pulled more than 65# or so. I am new to war bows and it's another dimension for me. This Osage stave is reflexed and has attitude 1" thick 1.25" wide about 70" long. I have a 21 strand string that just seams to keep stretching. Do I need more strands or do I need to shorten my string?
I am hoping for a bow that's in the 110# range. Marlin

Marlin .... what string material are you using?


Offline Marlin

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2011, 10:00:39 pm »
Horace
I am using B50 right now. The bow I made only turned out to be 80lbs  so i guess it workedout any way. It still strewched pretty good though. Marlin

Offline adb

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2011, 12:43:01 am »
On any bow >60#, I use nothing but FF. I find B50 way too stretchy. In fact, I can't even brace my 100# tri-lam with B50. With FF, it's a snap using push/pull.

Offline Marlin

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2011, 12:59:25 am »
On any bow >60#, I use nothing but FF. I find B50 way too stretchy. In fact, I can't even brace my 100# tri-lam with B50. With FF, it's a snap using push/pull.
I am going to get some of that before my next heavy bow. Hey I made a bodkin out of rebar the other day and shot a 2x4 with it. It only went a 1/2". Then I tried shooting a flat nosed shovel and the arrow broke right behind the socket. I guess a shovel would make pretty good armour.Marlin

Offline Marlin

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2011, 01:11:21 am »
My bodkin for a 1/2" arrow.

Offline Marlin

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Re: How many strands in a string.
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2011, 01:18:33 am »
Hope this picture turns out better.