Israli/Hebrew/Jewish bows???

[Scowler]

Pretty much what Craig said.  Just because a stone point looks like an arrowhead does not make it an arrowhead.  Atatl dart points look just like arrowheads.  Thats not to say that archery could not have been around prior to the Stellmoor bow, there is just no conclusive evidence (at this time) to support "Pre-Stellmoor" archery.  As far as Hebrew bows go most of the bows of the near east empires (Assyrians, Hittites, etc...) were compostie bows suitable for use while riding in a chariot.  The Egyptians used self bows until the Hyksos invasion of 1720 BCE.  so I would imagine that Hebrew bows would be some sort of composite bow as well.

[CraigMBeckett]

Strictly speculation on my part, but I would think that since the Hebrews grew from a family/tribal group to a nation in Egypt, it would be logical to assume that their bow designs would be based on the Egyptian styles.

After the Exodus and the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness, they would have have time to perfect their own designs before moving in to the Promised Land.  Likely they had some influence from surrounding peoples, but I would think that the primary design would be Egyptian. 

I am inclined to agree with you however one must bear in mind the Nubians who served the Egyptians for an awfully long time, they apparently stuck to their simple, (deflexed), bow even though their Masters changed the design of the bows they used through various forms of sinew/horn/wood bows from the angular to shapes we are more familiar with. So it seems that peoples can stay with one design even though it appears to be technically inferior to others used by their neighbours.

Craig.

[CraigMBeckett]

Pretty much what Craig said.  Just because a stone point looks like an arrowhead does not make it an arrowhead.  Atatl dart points look just like arrowheads.  Thats not to say that archery could not have been around prior to the Stellmoor bow, there is just no conclusive evidence (at this time) to support "Pre-Stellmoor" archery. 

Fully agree with you, and I believe that archery must have bee around prior to the dates ascribed to the Stellmoor bow(s), have you read this:

http://paleosite.free.fr/news/arcpaleo1.pdf

It is a report on a find that predates Stellmoor and is claimed to be a bow, it certainly looks like it may have been one, as much as the Stellmoor fragments did if not more than they, unfortunately it is in French but the online translators seem to handle it well. The Stellmoor bow(s) (plural because I understand there were a number of fragments of tips found, edit ** looked at the photo again, it seems there ore two tips so could be one bow or two bows, would need to know if the two were in a single line and would then definitely be one bow so have now put brackets around the"s".) are claimed to be something like 10,000 years old, while these people claim their bow is 17, 500 years old. One must also remember that doubts were cast as to the veracity of the Stellmoor claims and as the fragments did not survive the second world war we will never know of the truth of the matter. (edit** having looked at the photo again, they do appear to be bow tips to my old eyes).

Craig.

[Scowler]

Thanks for the heads up on the french article, Craig.  There was enough of english in the article, along with a good photo, to definitly get my attention.  The english translated description (what their was) along with the photo definitly supports the theory that the "Mannheim bow" could be a true bow.  It looks like a survival bow, or some of the bows I made in my youth.  The wood used for both this and the Stellmoor bow (pine) would be common (if not dominant) during the latter period of the ice age.  And as the ice retreated people followed the ice, taking their "proto bows" with them.  Eventually, after many sucesses and failures, the "Stellmoor bow" could have come into being.  I don't think that the Stellmoor bow was the first bow ever made by man.  It appears, at least in the reproductions I've seen, too "finished" to be a "proto-bow".  So, could the "Mannheim bow" be an example of one of the earliest bows?  Maybe.     

[CraigMBeckett]

Thanks for the heads up on the french article, Craig.  There was enough of english in the article, along with a good photo, to definitly get my attention.  The english translated description (what their was) along with the photo definitly supports the theory that the "Mannheim bow" could be a true bow.  It looks like a survival bow, or some of the bows I made in my youth.  The wood used for both this and the Stellmoor bow (pine) would be common (if not dominant) during the latter period of the ice age.  And as the ice retreated people followed the ice, taking their "proto bows" with them.  Eventually, after many sucesses and failures, the "Stellmoor bow" could have come into being.  I don't think that the Stellmoor bow was the first bow ever made by man.  It appears, at least in the reproductions I've seen, too "finished" to be a "proto-bow".  So, could the "Mannheim bow" be an example of one of the earliest bows?  Maybe.     

Scowler, any reproductions you have seen are almost entirely flights of fancy, all that survived of the Stellmoor bow, until the RAF intervened, were the tips, as in the attached photo.

[criveraville]

What does RAF stand for?

[criveraville]

Ok.. I didnt have my history cap on.. As in the bombing of Hamburge.. The United States Army Airforce also contributed to significantly. 

[Scowler]

Thanks for the photos.  Hope that we did not get too off topic.

[criveraville]

Those were great photos. Nope.. No hall monitors here 

It's just been bouncing around in my mind.. That the ancient Hebrew people that had very strict rules about almost everything in everyday life did not have their own very specific and unique bow truly Hebrew. That's what has had me asking the question.

[deerhunter97370]

I dont remember where I heard it but I remember hearing bout a Hebrew Birch Bow. But I was thinking also they were nomads for forty year before reaching the Promise Land, so they might have just used whatever was available for survival bows. Joel

[CraigMBeckett]

Criterville,

Came across this when searching for something else.

http://farmsoldsite.farmsresearch.com/publications/books/?bookid=66&chapid=737, its an article entitled "Warfare in the book of Mormon, it has an interesting passage  on "Hebrew" bows taken from the King James bible, see below:

To answer this question, one must examine the translations of the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) in which the phrase "steel bow" is used (2 Samuel 22:35; Psalm 18:34; Job 20:24). In each reference the phrase has been incorrectly translated and should really read "bronze" (Heb. nechushah) bow. From archaeological remains, it is clear that the Hebrew "bronze bow" was not made entirely of bronze but was a term that, as Roland de Vaux notes, "refers to the metal coverings of certain bows."15 Nephi's "steel bow" could thus likely be Joseph Smith's Jacobean English translation for an original Hebrew "bronze bow," referring to an ordinary wopden weapon decorated or reinforced in certain parts (usually the upper limb, nock, and grip) with bronze. This explanation is supported by the fact that Nephi's "steel" bow is said to have broken, a good indication that Nephi was not referring to a pure steel bow of the fourteenth-century-A.D. type, which would be essentially impossible to break by human muscle power alone.

I'm intrigued by the line "From archaeological remains, it is clear that the Hebrew "bronze bow" was not made entirely of bronze but was a term that, as Roland de Vaux notes, "refers to the metal coverings of certain bows."

Maybe someone knows what is being spoken of?

EDIT**
Ah it seems Roland de Vaux wrote 2 books on Ancient Israel, so maybe you could look up what he says and see if he mentions any more on bows.

Craig

[Gus]

Did some searching and found a site out there selling bows claimed to be based on ancient Hebrew Chariot Bow.

Also ran across what is claimed to be one of Muhammad's bows on display in a museum in Constantinople.
Reflex/Deflex(?) all bamboo with a jeweled case...

-Gus

[TheWildCat]

II Samuell 2:18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.

The Jewish peopl definately used the bow.