Author Topic: type 16 war arrow  (Read 28210 times)

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Lloyd

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type 16 war arrow
« on: June 10, 2007, 06:09:01 pm »
here is the arrow made from the type 16 head I rec'd from John Marshall. 1/2" ash shaft, tapered to 3/8 at the nock. 32.25" to base of socket. 8.5" turkey feathers silk binding. 1610 grains, 104.35 grams, 3.68 ounces. The head was about 630 grains or so by itself
here is a pic of the head



here are some pics of the whole arrow



« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 06:20:09 pm by Lloyd »

SimonUK

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2007, 06:48:34 pm »
That's the kind of arrow you could hunt an elephant with.

Offline Loki

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2007, 07:12:26 pm »
Look's great! i'll have one of those 16's next.
Durham,England

Offline Loki

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2007, 01:09:08 pm »
Hey Lloyd,did you put the edge on the blade yourself? it looks bloody lethal  ;D.
Durham,England

Offline adb

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2007, 02:23:48 pm »
Hey, Lloyd

Who is John Marshall? Does he sell these heads, and if so, does he have a contact email, or ph #?

Thanks!

Offline ChrisD

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2007, 03:48:20 pm »
Well, it is a very nice looking arrow - but that head looks like it contains an awful lot of metal and maybe wouldn't look out of place on a gatepost.

Enclosed are a couple of replica type 16s. The one on the left is about 10 years old, and is made of 3/8 inch ash, the other is more recent and is made of 1/2 inch Poplar with a Hector Cole head. Weights are 62.8 grams and 57.7 grams respectively, fletches are 6.5 inches long and total arrow length is of the order of 35 inches (one just over, the other just under).

Now I know that they are not exact MR replicas - but the lighter one is close and the heavier one wouldn't gain that much extra weight if it were so. Replace the head with a short type 10 and you get 2oz or so, which, interestingly enough is what appears as the lightest arrow in the test series at the end of the Hardy and Strickland book and which Simon Stanley shoots 357yds, thereby (in my humble view) indicating that 150lb bows were not the order of the day .

C




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duffontap

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2007, 03:56:02 pm »
Simon Stanley shoots 357yds, thereby (in my humble view) indicating that 150lb bows were not the order of the day .

I thought Medieval target ranges were out to just over 400 yards.  Perhaps I heard wrong. 

                J. D. Duff

Very nice arrows all.

sagitarius boemoru

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2007, 05:17:55 pm »
I m frankly tired of another thread hijacked with "Ooo they did not have 150 lbs bows" and another blatlant non sequitur. When both experiments with copies of the artifacts in correct wood, measurements of arrows and preserved record of distances shows contrary.


J.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 05:23:37 pm by sagitarius boemoru »

Lloyd

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2007, 09:01:50 pm »
Well, it is a very nice looking arrow - but that head looks like it contains an awful lot of metal and maybe wouldn't look out of place on a gatepost.

Enclosed are a couple of replica type 16s. The one on the left is about 10 years old, and is made of 3/8 inch ash, the other is more recent and is made of 1/2 inch Poplar with a Hector Cole head. Weights are 62.8 grams and 57.7 grams respectively, fletches are 6.5 inches long and total arrow length is of the order of 35 inches (one just over, the other just under).

Now I know that they are not exact MR replicas - but the lighter one is close and the heavier one wouldn't gain that much extra weight if it were so. Replace the head with a short type 10 and you get 2oz or so, which, interestingly enough is what appears as the lightest arrow in the test series at the end of the Hardy and Strickland book and which Simon Stanley shoots 357yds, thereby (in my humble view) indicating that 150lb bows were not the order of the day .

C



I'm not even going to address 150 pound argument.
Addressing only the arrow mechanics my 1/2" ash shaft weighs almost 1000 grains by itself, and it far from the heaviest I've ever made. As for the weight of historical war arrows there is a quote in the Great Warbow, that is I believe attributed to Charles I lamenting that no one can shoot "an quarter pound arrow" any more.


I think war arrows have a large weight range. I've had arrows of the same general pattern and the same batch of wood come out between 65 and 120 grams. I've had poplar shafts that ended up weighing more than similar ash shafts. Wood also varies a lot from one region to another. I have a set of 3/8" ash I'm working on that the bare shaft with horn insert and nock finished weigh around 50 grams. If I put 160 grain field points on those they would weigh more than your lightest type 16 does. With hand forged heads the weight variations can get very extreme. I seem to recall Hugh Soar commenting in Secrets of the English Warbow that he at one time received type 16s from several different smiths and how surprised he was by the variation in the weight and size of the heads.


Additionally, arrow #5 in the back of the Great Warbow is listed at 86 grams, and the point is a target blunt. Put a proper bodkin on that and you will be easily over 100 grams. So between the lightest and heaviest examples in the Great Warbow we pretty much have a range defined for us. I've made arrows that cover the entire range, this one just happens to be at one extreme end.

duffontap

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2007, 09:08:11 pm »
That Marshall head is beautiful.  John should be very proud.

        J. D. Duff

Lloyd

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2007, 11:54:22 pm »
Loki, I had John put theedge on it. It's not really that sharp, but at least the bevel is already there f I ever decide to touch the edge up.

adb3112; I sent you a PM


Offline ChrisD

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2007, 06:54:51 pm »
J.D - I also have heard 400yds quoted - but I've never met anyone who believed it. I tend to think that 240 paces was probably an engagement distance which would come out at about 200yds in todays money. Again, there'll be many who disagree with that, but its not the lowest estimate you'll find either.

Lloyd - I wasn't intending to disaparage the arrow you've shown and my comment about the bows was only intended to suggest that discussions of arrows ought to had with an eye to context. I know about the Charles I quote and have often wondered about it because you can shoot said arrow out of any bow providing you don't mind it not being too effective. I think that if the quote is an accurate one, it would have been interesting to know the precise context of the conversation.

I think I can see why theres a range of weights  of the same arrow heads  mentioned by Soar. Volume varies with the cube of radius and that in effect means that you get a great deal more substance of anything with fairly puny increases in radius. This effect is more marked with denser substances so that I can well see that two ingots of metal might have very little difference in size to the naked eye, and make two arrowheads that look very similar and have but have a big variance in weight. The surface area variation is smaller because it varies with the sqaure of radius only and that surface area vs volume variation for given radius changes  is used to advantage in nature many times.

To the medieval arrowsmith, I suppose it might have been relatively easy to standardise weights of arrowheads - simply start off with a standard weight ingot of metal - but I've never made any so I don't know :(

I agree that the arrowheads came in a big range of weights - but I always reckoned that lighter ones would have been used at longer ranges and heavier ones closer in. Do you think that maybe they could all have been designed to a standard weight (or matched with shafts such that the end result was standard)?

C

Lloyd

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2007, 10:01:12 pm »
I didn't think you were being disparaging of my work.
Sorry if I came off a bit defensive, that was not my intention. I was just trying to add my perspective to the discussion. I am also interested in the opinions of others and I love a well reasoned argument. The thing I continue to find amazing is the difference in wood density and weight. I have 5 finished but unfletched shafts made from Czech ash that I got from Jaroslav. This is some of the straightest, strongest and most resilient ash I've ever seen. Of those 5 shafts the weights run from 740 to 980 grains. I've had others from the same batch of wood weigh as much as 1400 grains after tapering.
I always thought the subtext on the Charles I quote should include "worth a damn" appended to the end of "and none can now shoot an quarter pound arrow (worth a damn)" It's true that one could if one wished shoot a 4 oz arrow from a 50 lb bow. It might actually clear the bow once the sting is released before hitting the ground. But to shoot it well requires one hell of a bow.

I'm not too sure about the ability of the smith to forge consistently matched heads, at least no smith I've ever got heads from seems to be able to do it. That's the job of the arrow smith with a good scale and a big file. Here's a challenge for any blacksmiths reading this post. Can you make 6 of any type arrow head, but lets say type 7 or 16 with a 1/2" socket, and have them come out within 20 grains of each other without any file work? If you can please send me your email address and price list ;)
For the arrow heads it's not just the volume of metal involved but different smiths have different ideas of how the same head should be made. Also individuals seem to have different default settings when it comes to measuring by eye. As an example I'm grinding horn inserts for my shafts I can get down to 3/32" without any problems and I can do it reliably and repeatably. But trying to get to 1/16 kills me every time. I've finally figured out that the thickness of the insert doesn't matter, as long as it matches the width of my cut, and I think the same applies to forging heads.

I agree that lighter livery arrows are for longer distance, hence the quotes about "galling arrows", and the heavy ones are definitely for close in work, although I saw a post from Marlon heavybows saying he shot a 2000 grain arrow something like 200 yards from his yew selfbow. No one except maybe Marlon is going to be shooting 1400 grain arrows 300 yards. 400 yards is probably a pipe dream, or someone did it once with a 30 MPH tail wind and the world has never forgotten. On the other hand the Mongols are recorded shooting at targets 500 yards away so who knows? I certainly don't.

When I'm making a set of arrows I almost always put the heaviest head on the lightest shaft and the lightest head on the heaviest shaft to reduce the weight variation as much as possible. I think when England was preparing for the French campaign that culminated in Agincourt they didn't worry about it too much. When you have all the blacksmiths in the kingdom producing barrels of arrow heads, and all the arrow smiths churning out hundreds of thousands if not millions of shafts and all the farmers in the land are raping their geese for feathers I don't think you are going to end up with matched sets. One of my favorite scenes in the Grail Quest books by Bernard Cornwell is when Thomas and the rest of the archers are sitting around camp going through their latest set of munitions grade arrows bitching about the quality and fondly remembering the old days when they each used to make their own arrows and how much better they were. I think that's an important point to remember when we look at war arrows in the historical context. Today livery arrows are lovingly made and cherished. 500 hundred years ago they were throw away munitions and were probably produced as quickly as possible. There were undoubtedly masterpiece matched sets but they were probably few and far between. I'm also willing to bet that the king's archers had better quality arrows than the shire militias who brought what they had and made do with what they were given.

Pax.


sagitarius boemoru

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2007, 11:33:40 pm »
"Again, there'll be many who disagree with that, but its not the lowest estimate you'll find either."

Strawmaning again are we?


J.


Offline ChrisD

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Re: type 16 war arrow
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2007, 11:47:22 am »
I think I remember that part in the grail quest books. I have to say though that bitching about how good things were in the past is a peculiarly British pastime and I'm sure that Cornwell was using the scene to make a 'plus ca change' point. Another author who does the same is Julian Rathbone - especially in 'The Last English King' which is a great read which I can heartily recommend.

I've been wondering about something for a while which was restimulated by your post. What if they didn't put the heaviest heads on, but the lightest possible ones?

The thought goes like this. Drag is mostly produced by surface area of an object which is defined by radius squared. Mass is produced by volume which is defined by radius cubed. In some aquatic animals, for example, this produces a selection bias towards increased size because the extra volume you get contains a lot of muscle which is acquired for not that big an increase in surface area, and therefore drag. The result is that big aquatic animals are fast, and the blue whale, for example was only hunted from the 1930's onward for that reason.

As with aquatic animals, so with arrows. The increase in mass should come at the expense of smaller increases in surface area, and therefore drag if you make them bigger. The problem is that with a tip heavy arrow with a big head on it, eventually, the tip will drop and the drag then goes up markedly as the length of the shaft and fletches come 'face on' to the direction of travel.As Hardy pointed out, the calculations at the end of the book didn't allow for attidudinal changes in the arrow.

Now, to my mind, for a galling arrow, the head doesn't need to be heavy, just strong enough to withstand the impact and hard enough to concentrate all the force at a point without deforming so that it has a chance to go through. Ascham said that ash was the material of choice because it gives a hell of a whallop (fierce heavy stripe is how I think he put it), which to me indicates that the job of providing weight to the arrow belonged, perhaps predominantly, to the shaft. We also have an indication that fletches were 'long and low', from a welsh poem about a medieval chap saying what he'd need to shoot a really strong shot (yew bow, girlfriend nearby to impress and a few other bits and pieces). I'm not at all a fan of using art of the period as too much of a guide because those guys had some real problems with scale and perspective - but some depictions of arrows do look as if the fletches com a a long way down the shaft.

Where all this is going is that the trick might not be to add a heavy arrowhead- it'd be to use heavy wood and control the attitude of the thing in the air so it presents as little as possible of itself for as long as possible, as big aquatic animals do. What about taking the heaviest shaft you can find, put a bodkin head on which is strong enough to do withstand the impact without deforming, but no more, and experiment with 8.5inch fletches in terms both of height and position on the shaft? It'd still weigh in at over 1000grains and might travel a long way.

I'd be surprised if this hasn't been done - its just that I haven't heard about it and I'm curious.

C