Author Topic: Heavy bow strings  (Read 32924 times)

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Offline markinengland

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Heavy bow strings
« on: May 28, 2007, 05:13:35 am »
At Batsford we had some interesting talk about bow strings in relation to warbows. I wonder what your thoughts are to the following rambling thoughts?
It is understandable that someone who has invested a lot of money in buying a warbow or someone who may have invested a lot of time into making one will err on the safety side when making up a bow string. Bowyers may well advise on the side of safety for the sake of their reputations and insurance. No one wants a broken string and a broken bow and when faced with a monster bow of 100lb, 150lb and over a mega strong string suddenly seems like a good idea!
An interesting question would be what basic string type and mass/strength is the best compromise between performance and durability?
Some at Batsford thought that string mass had little influence on a heavy bow, the limiting factors being limb speed and limb mass, arrow mass etc. Basically along the lines of what works on normal bows doesn't apply to warbows.
Some build very strong strings, with 22 or so strands of Fastflight, feeling that this maybe is safer and that the stronger string may give a better push to the arrow.
All this has got me thinking. I wondered if anyone has done tests, looking at how the string (usually overlooked!) affects range with warbows and military and flight arrows?
So much of what we think is fact in archery isn't actually fact! Not long ago the perceived wisdom was that you couldn't use fastflight with wooden bows, now this is almost the norm. What one person is told just can't be done, someone else is doing, not having heard this FACT! A lot of what we hear is plain bulls--t or like 95%statistics is made up on the spur of the moment ;D
So far I have noticed that the "laws" of physics are pretty fair, and generally apply to everyone. You don't live to long if you get to thinking you're immune to Newtons principles of equal and opposite reactions (though many pedestrians in London appear to be testing this!). It appears sensible to me that the basic physics that works for flight archery also will work for scaled up warbows.
Flight archery is more extreme, the Formula 1 racing equivalent, where performance at the expense of durability is worth the risk, but surely the same basic principles apply? As I understand it the distance you can get with ANY bow is limited by the initial speed you can give an arrow. This applies to both heavy military arrows or lighter flight arrows. In a nutshell distance is limited by arrow speed. Other factors in the arrow itself will decide how far that arrow goes, but if it ain't going fast it ain't going far!
What limits speed?
1) Bow speed. Arrow speed increases with bow limb speed or really bow tip speed. Really the power of the bow doesn't matter, just the speed. A really fast low draw weight bow will shoot a light optimal efficiency arrow further than a slower higher draw weight bow shooting a heavier optimal efficiency arrow. So a fast bow is a good idea.
2) The speed with which the limb tips move is transfered to the string. The string is a critical element that is usually ignored. While people may talk about their bows and envy each others arrows, we almost never talk about strings! It seems obvious that a lighter string will better transfer this speed. A string with infinitely low mass would take no energy out of the limbs, and a string with infinitely high mass would take all the energy out of the limbs. With an infinatly heavy string the bow limbs wouldn't be able to move at all! Extreme but perhaps shows that string mass must have an effect. So a string as light as possible is good for distance.
3) A low stretch string will better transfer the force to the arrow, give it that last final whip effect as the limbs slam forward. A stretchy string will instead itself absorb the energy of the bow. With an infinately stretchy string the arrow wouldn't leave the bow as none of that energy would transfer! So a string that stretches as little as possible on the shot is a good idea.
That is about it as far as I can see. Obviously there are other factors, like technique in the loose, draw length etc. The arrow itself is a huge factor. An arrow that is optimal weight is good. There is a limit with each bow at which there is no point in reducing arrow weight any further. The arrow will go no further and more shock will be taken by the bow and string leading to possible failure. Other factors like how well matched the arrow is to the bow, drag due to shape and fletching, balance point will have an influence on how well this energy is used after the arrow leave the bow.
What I think is generally overlooked is the string.
I think a string that is made light and not too stretchy but within acceptable limits of durability would help many people get quite a lot more distance.
Dacron is in my opinion terrible stuff. It stretches too much and is quite weak with a breaking strain of around 35lbs per strand. You have to strain too much to get the string on the bow, only to watch it strtetch like toffee a good 4 inches on the bow and god knows how much on the a shot
Fastflight and other equivalents have very little stretch and very high strand strength. Fastflight has a strand strength of 100lbs. 450 plus has a strand strength of 155lbs! Using the four times bow strength rule generally seen as "safe" a 35lb bow could use just one strand of 450 plus! Obviously it is very easy to overbuild a bow string using these materials.
A 22 strand fastflight string has a breaking strain in excess of 2200lbs! Using the 4 times bow strength guide this would be OK for a bow of 550lbs! It is possible that such a string could break a bow because it is simply too strong, when it was used in the first place to try to stop the bow breaking due to string breakage!
A 120lb bow could have a string with 5 strand of fastflight, giving a breaking strain of 500lb which is actually over strong! If this makes you wince too much, why not double up and have a 10 strand string over twice as strong as it really needs to be. Surely this would be a good enough safety margin for a seasons shooting?
Personally I like 450 plus, this has a strand strength of 155lbs per strand. A six strand string does look skinny, but at 930lbs breaking strain is really very strong, strong enough for a 265lb bow! As I have yet to pull such a monster bow I reckon it is more that strong enough for my bows until I do.
A double loop string made to match the bow strength (4 times bow strength and no more) may gve good flight distances and do so quite safely. Make a new one every six months or so and you should have no problems.
A somewhat overbuilt flemish twist string (8 times bow strength) may compensate for being too strong by the extra stretch the flemsih construction gives and again would be quite safe and being modestly overbuilt should last a long time. It is easy to make a new one and adjust brace height.
I think we are used to seeing bow strings of a certain diameter, these fit the nocks on our arrows and "feel" right. Much of this comes from target archery for whoom these plastic nocks are made, for whoom bow shock is not a problem, who want the stablity of a massive string, and durability for hundreds or thousands of repetitive shots before they go out and buy another string because they want it to match their fletchings! I think the truth is that most wooden bows and most warbows bows have got massively overbuilt strings and may shoot further and safer if we looked at it again.
Mark in England
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 01:51:58 pm by J. D. Duff »

Offline heavybow

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2007, 06:23:01 am »
Mark with my war bow of 148# 22 strands of fast flight. On my fiber glass bow they have 26 to 30 strands of fast flight. marlon

Offline markinengland

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2007, 07:25:43 am »
Marlon,
It would be interesting to see how much of a difference it would make if you cut thr strand numbers down.
A 30 strand string would be quite safe on a 750lb bow! 12 strands would be quite safe on a 300lb bow.
It would be interesting if you shot a dozen arrows out of one of your fibreglass bows with 30 strand string and wrote down the average distance then in the same weather conditions shot the same arrows on the same bow with a 12 strand string. This would still be a safe string but I bet it would increase your distance quite a lot.
I may try this on one of my bows. I have a low weight Slazenger bow with quite a heavy overbuilt string. I could shoot a few arrows. mark the positions then shoot the same arrows out of the bow with a silly one strand string and see what difference I get.
Mark in England

SimonUK

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2007, 10:19:53 am »
Very good points Mark. I have often wondered why the strings contain so many strands if the rule is 4 or 5 times the weight of the bow.

When I made my very first bow which was of 55 lbs draw weight, I used a single strand of nylon string from my local DIY shop - it was very thin stuff (about twice the diameter of Dacron B-50) and it didn't break during tillering or shooting. I can't say it worked well as it was very stretchy and very painful on the fingers, but it illustrates the point that it's not necessary to have such heavy strings.

Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2007, 06:52:09 pm »
Ah, well what you want then is an endless loop buckytube/titanium nanofibre - strong enough to move the moon and invisible without a microscope :D See the fingers and ears fly off!

Seriously though - a high tensile strength no stretch string would produce a hell of a shock for the bow wouldn't it? Especially if the tips have been slimmed down to the nth degree to make them light and fast?

I guess you can't blame modern bowyers though. Even a 95% confidence would lead to too many string breakages - and maybe bow breakages - for a guy making a living out of the business, hence the big strings. I certainly won't be attaching anything I have doubts about to a yew bow which cost a big fortoona to buy, or indeed serious time and effort to build ;)

My ash bow, on the other hand is another story - I think it might well survive a broken string and in any case, I have promised to test it to destruction. What I'd really be interested in is one of these linen strings which are supposed to be OK in a 100lb bow. OK, my horrid, stacking, rough looking, string following ash bow may not stress the string like a yew or laminate would  - but anyone know a good source?

C

Offline markinengland

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2007, 10:00:34 am »
SimonUK,
In the Bowyers Bible they give the four times rule and also one in which you measure the poundage at 10 inches and mulitply by fifteen or maybe at 15 inches and multiply by ten. The important thing is that these are all SAFE guidelines for strings but give a durable string with much fewer strands than is normal practice.
ChrisD,
Lots of people are using high tensile low stretch strings. Fastflight is one of these and linen is another. Linen is very low in stretch compaired to linen and behaves on the bow much like fastlfight, excpet it weighs more and won't last as long. Old archery books talk about linen strings being made with enough strands to be four times bow strength. I think there is as much chance of a string breaking a bow because it is too strong as too weak, breaking and hence breaking the bow. A longbow of say 50lbs with a 16 strand fastflight string is way over-stringed! 16 strands would do a 400lb bow! Even 16 strand of decron is good for a 140lb bow even if stretched like anything.
I got a variety of linen string materials from a local ships chandlery here in Gravesend by the Thames. A spool of Barbour 6 ply cord waxed or unwaxed costs about £15. I found that my first linen string used on a 40lb primitive bow broke on the knot end I made a new string with extra threads at each end and it has lasted many months. I have since got some Barbour linen machine thread that looks very promising. At about £35 for a large spool it had better be!
Personally, for a heavier bow and one of any great value I would use a slender but maybe still double the needed number of strands flemish twist string, using a modern string material. I like 450plus as you can get it in small spools that don't cost the earth. I've not had a string break of bow break using this and I have pushed the limits as far as I dare.
Mark

Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2007, 10:54:31 am »
Mark

Thanks for the tips on sources and types of linen. I guess I've been putting off the string making jig for long enough and should get on with it. At least its an activity that needn't involve being banished to the garage because of noise,  bad smell and general dust production that goes with bow building.

I'll give it a go.

C

Offline markinengland

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2007, 07:30:21 pm »
Chris,
For a flemish twist string you don't need a jig.
Mark

Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2007, 12:12:17 pm »
Oh.

Showing my complete ignorance of string making there  ???- I'll look it up and get on with it - but it'll still be a while. Its taken since our last conversation on

Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2007, 12:27:00 pm »
Oh.

Showing my complete ignorance of string making there  ???- I'll look it up and get on with it - but it'll still be a while. Its taken since our last conversation on the NFAS site just to make a couple of bows that didn't turn into firewood. I had a couple of great barbecues on the back of last years efforts and I'm now getting somewhere on that front - I've largely ignored arrows and strings for the present simply because of lack of time.

Question for you. I went to timberline and found them very helpful as you said, and in a rush of blood to the head, I bought a great big chunk of Pau Amorello (about 80x 10 x 4). I was thinking about taking it to a sawmill and taking out a load of belly wood from it in order to make backed bows but then I heard that its really better as a core wood - and in any case got too busy making hickory/lemonwood bows because I found them an easier(not to mention cheaper) learning experience.

The questions I have are
1) Do I need to pay strict attention to the grain or can I just take it out along the length and not worry too much where the growth rings are.
2) What do you reckon on it as a belly wood?

Sorry for going off thread, but I'd be grateful for your view.

Chris

PS Good luck with the 'primitives'

SimonUK

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2007, 12:35:17 pm »
If you had a barbeque made out of yew, would you get poisoned?

sagitarius boemoru

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2007, 12:53:34 pm »
Not healthiest roast for sure.

 I used pau amarello for belly on longbows and I think its better than most wood. Makes very crisp feeling in the bow and its not as heavy in mass as Ipe, it was my first impression when I finished the bow "Ohh its so light in hand". Might be somehow critical to tiler, but I liked it lot more than half dozen of other woods...

I was told once, by about as most experienced person in buissness that true degame, which comes from Cuba and its impossible to get now for 40 years is much denser and better wood than lemonwood from south america even if botanically the same. But I have no chance to try. Lemonwood is not imported here and I have all the Ipe  to play with...


J.

Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2007, 02:22:50 pm »
Thank you for that Jaro. I'll give it a go as a belly wood then and back it with hickory.

Can I ask you about something more 'on thread'.

JD mentioned that you'd been using linen strings on heavy bows. Can you tell me about them please? Are they flemish or reverse twist or.... what?

I have a biggish ash bow which I'm keen to try this on.

C

Offline bobnewboy

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2007, 02:31:10 pm »
Hi Guys,  does fastflight make good flemish twist strings as opposed to endless loop strings?  I have only ever used B50 thus far.  Since fastflight is presumably a far denser and smoother finished thread, does it grip as well in twisted cords?  When using it with flemish loops do you have to allow a longer interweaving section to ensure security?  Finally, do you have wax each thread as you assemble the string, as with B50, or is fastflight better assembled dry ?

Sorry for all the questions, but I have been trying some changes with B50, and all seems well so far. I would like to try fastflight, or maybe dyneema etc in the coming months.  I only shoot field and occasional roving, and certainly not warbows (I'm a weed), but a little extra speed is never a bad thing  ;D

//Bob in Surrey, UK.
"The Englishman takes great pride in his liberty. He values this gift more than all the joys of life, and would sacrifice everything to retain it. The populace would have you understand there is no country in the world where such perfect freedom can be enjoyed, as in England!" Frenchman, London 1719

Offline markinengland

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Re: Heavy bow strings
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2007, 06:07:44 pm »
Bob,
I have used 450 plus rather than fastflight but have had nor problems with this modern material. I much prefer it to dacron as it doesn't stretch so much. This makes the bow eaiser to string, the brace heights stays where you put it and the string is perhaps cheaper to make.
The 450 plus grips fine (when i remember to twist it the right way!). I have used slightly longer twisted sections, some shorter and had no problem. By the way, you are no weed. I'd hate to have weeds like you in my garden!
Chris,
A flemish twist string can easily be made in the hand with no jig at all. i can't understand why everyone talks about jigs for such simple strings!
Mark in England