How or why did the English become a bow culture?

[Dane]

Anyone have any theories, or is there historical documentation or theories about this? I've been moving in the direction of the Asiatic compsite bows, and it doesn't take a genious to figure out why nomadic peoples and peoples living in places like China, Mongolia, Egypt, Mespotamia, etc. would develop that kind of bow.

But how did the English become a bow culture, at least in war? I was just glancing through some materials about the Germanic (Germanii to the Romans) tribes that overran and settled in what we call England now (Anglii, Saxons, etc.). Did they bring the bow to the island? Did the Celts and other indigenous peoples of England not use the bow in hunting and war? Anglo Saxons certainly did not focus on the bow as a war weapon (I belive), and the Norse too had a different take on warfare, using the sword, shield, spear, and sometimes the axe. Probably far more Seaxs in use in England for long after the Germans arrived than any other kind of weapon.

So, all that said, how did the English evolve the war bow?

[D. Tiller]

Hey Dane! Well from  what I read it was during the conquest of the Welsh that they were on the receiving end of massed volleys of arrows. Seeing this they soon discovered that it was an effective way of taking down their enemies since it was done to them so often by the Welsh. Then over a number of years they developed their own archers and further developed the English Warbow and tactics to meet their needs on the field.

About all I know on the subject!


David T

[Loki]

Britons have a history of Archery dating back 6,000yrs,the Rottom bottom Bow and Ashcott/ Meare Heath Bows are hunting Bows from the late stone early metal Age.The Brythonic tribes are/were NOT 'Celts'! the Celtic migration theory was bollicks when it was written over a hundred years ago,DNA proves the so called 'Celts' on the west fringes of the Isles are descended from the Neolithic people who first settled here from Iberia (the ones who built the henges) when the ice retreated.
well anyway,when the Danes came to the North East they allready hasd a culture of using Bows for Wars,as you say it wasnt a wide spread use of the Saxon Army's (Like Roman's they prefered to fight as Infantry) but some Bowmen would of been present with the Saxon fyrd,village hunters and such,nothing special.
Saying that,the Hadrada was killed by a arrow at Stamford Bridge so the Hunters present cant have been all that bad!
After that lucky dog the Conqueror (cant believe he won that one!) defeated Godwinson at Hasting's and the Norman conquerors pushed into what is now Wales (Waelsh is a Saxon word meaning Foreignor,the bloody cheek!) they came up against the Wych elm Bows of the Brythonic Welsh,by all accounts these weapons were of a high draw weight,capable of killing armoured men,saddles horses etc,i'm sure you know the quote.
King Edward liked these Welsh lads and there Bows,he incorporated them into his Army's and changed the English laws to gain a supply of excellent Archers  .The English archer's and Bowyer's developed the Bow into a WarBow of Yew,importing the best wood from all over Europe to make the best weapons possible for killing Scotsmen and the French.

Something like that 
 

[SimonUK]

It's my understanding that most if not all of the groups in northern Europe used bows in war around that time. But the Welsh must have had particularly good bows and were skillful archers. An English king (?Edward 1st) adopted the bow as a major weapon of war after seeing what the Welsh could do with it against his own armies. In fact he recruited Welsh bowmen into the english army to fight against the Scots with great success at Falkirk.

[Dane]

Britons have a history of Archery dating back 6,000yrs,the Rottom bottom Bow, Ashcott and Meare Heath Bows are hunting Bows from the Iron Age.The Brythonic tribes are/were NOT 'Celts'! the Celtic migration theory was bollicks when it was written over a hundred years ago,DNA proves the so called 'Celts' on the west fringes of the Isles are descended from the Neolithic people who first settled here from Iberia (the ones who built the henges).
well anyway,when the Danes came to the North East they allready hasd a culture of using Bows for Wars,as you say it wasnt a wide spread use of the Saxon Army's (Like Roman's they prefered to fight as Infantry) but some Bowmen would of been present with the Saxon fyrd,village hunters and such,nothing special.
Saying that,the Hadrada was killed by a arrow at Stamford Bridge so the Hunters present cant have been all that bad!
After that lucky dog the Conqueror (cant believe he won that one!) defeated Godwinson at Hasting's and the Norman conquerors pushed into what is now Wales (Waelsh is a Saxon word meaning Foreignor,the bloody cheek!) they came up against the Wych elm Bows of the Brythonic Welsh,by all accounts these weapons were of a high draw weight,capable of killing armoured men,saddles horses etc,i'm sure you know the quote.
King Edward liked these Welsh lads and there Bows,he incorporated them into his Army's and changed the English laws to gain a supply of excellent Archers  .The English archer's and Bowyer's developed the Bow into a WarBow of Yew,importing the best wood from all over Europe to make the best weapons possible for killing Scotsmen and the French.

Something like that 
 

Egads, sorry about bringing in those Celts...they were fond of plaids, after all

Seriously, thanks, you guys...you have to look at the Welsh, eh?

You can thank those Norse for tiring out Harlod, and after all, if it wasn't for William, England would still maybe be a Germanic country.

So, can you take a stab at how the Welsh developed their bows? Or is that totally impossible thus far in archeology and history?

 

[SimonUK]

I read somewhere that the Welsh bows were knobly, showing that they knew how to follow the grain and leave extra wood on where required. The pre-Roman tribes of Britain were known for their craftsmanship so I wouldn't be surprised if their decendants, the Welsh, could develop good bows.

[Loki]

Egads, sorry about bringing in those Celts.

LOL,its one of those common misconceptions what tourism takes advantage of,gets my goat a bit  .

You can thank those Norse for tiring out Harlod, and after all, if it wasn't for William, England would still maybe be a Germanic country

We still are a Germanic people for the most part,the Norman Conquerors made very little impact on the gene pool of England,there a study going on at the moment by Oxford univerity which is recording all the DNA types native to Briton which is disproving a lot of theories  .
Its very hard to determine which people exactly you are descended from because the Angle-Saxons,Danish Viking's and the Normans all come from the same place (whats now Denmark),therefore the DNA is the same.
The South West of England and the West tips of Wales are mostly native Briton,the South East and Midlands are Saxon,the North East is Danish viking and the North west of Scotland are Norwegian Viking according to the study  .

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/e-h/face.html

[Loki]

The pre-Roman tribes of Britain were known for their craftsmanship so I wouldn't be surprised if their decendants, the Welsh, could develop good bows.

Indeed,the Iron age tribes of Britain were famous metal workers i dont see why they wouldnt have similar skill's in woodworking,they literaly worshiped wood!the Saxon invaders were a rough bunch but after a couple of hundred years of living with the Native British,they produce pieces like what we see from thr Sutton Hoo buriel.
Battersea shield (Brythonic) 100BC and a recreation of the Sutton Hoo helm from the 7thCE (Saxon).


[attachment deleted by admin]

[SimonUK]

Nice pictures Loki. That sheild is a very good example of 'celtic' art - swirls, spirals and vague trumpet shapes, very beautiful indeed. Many people think celtic art is the classic irish interwoven pattern ('knotwork') seen in the Book of Kells, but I think that is actually norse/germanic in origin - the irish must have adopted it during contact with the vikings or angosaxons around that time.

[Loki]

That sheild is a very good example of 'celtic' art - swirls, spirals and vague trumpet shapes, very beautiful indeed

Yes its very beautiful but it isnt 'Celtic',the Brythonic people had a similar style to the Celtic finds found at La Tene (Switzerland) but there not the same.

Many people think celtic art is the classic irish interwoven pattern ('knotwork') seen in the Book of Kells, but I think that is actually norse/germanic in origin - the irish must have adopted it during contact with the vikings or angosaxons around that time.

The Knotwork of Ireland and Scotland is Pictish,the Picts were very different to the 'Celts' (Celtii are from Switzerland),they originated in Ireland but they migrated to Scotland,wiping out the native Scotti tribe of the Caledone's and building there Brock's,only the Picts lived in Brock's there's no other examples of them any where else in Europe.
Thats not to say that there's no Norse influence's in the book of Kell's,the Book of Kells wasnt written in Ireland it was wrote by a single a munk on Iona (west coast of Scotland) ,its a striking example of Insular art and so is the Lindisfarne Gospel,they date from around the same time but Lindisfarne is on the North East coast of England.However the Norse influence came from the Saxon's (Saxons in northern England were the last ones to give up the old God's),it cant have been influenced by the Vikings because they were fiercly Pagan and they were burning every Monastry they could find at the time both these Gospels were written.


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[Loki]

Yeah your right i got that mixed up,the Picts were the Alliance of Northern Tribes who were destroyed bye the Scotti invasion,oops!

he ancient britains were described as (celtic type) people by the romans.

Oh well,they must have been then  ,The Romans described everyone north of the Alps as Celtii  or Barbars as they called them,thats where we get the word Barbarian from.Its a derogatory name supposed to describe there language's,BarBarbarBarBar  .

The 100 year old theory that the Celtii migrated from Switzerland (La tene) has been discredited,the only reason the victorian Archeologist's wrote it is because they found the Battersea shield in the Thames a few years after the artifacts at La tene were found.They put that with the tribal names which have there counterparts on the Gaulish mainland,Parisi (both Parisi tribes bury there dead in chariots) and Belgae and came up with a migration theory  ,forgetting that the tribal names we know are the names the Romans gave them!we dont know what they called themselves! because Romans saw similarity's between the tribes doesnt mean much,a Roman think's everyone who's not Roman is a dirty smelly milk drinking BarBar  .
DNA testing now proves that the so called 'Celts' of Britain have lived here since the ice retreated after the last Ice age,if the Celtii did migrate here then there DNA is exactly the same as the DNA of the people who built Stonehenge 5,000 years ago,no need for them to migrate in 300Bc when they were allready here  .

[SimonUK]

Take a look at this from the Oseberg Ship, built around 820:

http://www.angelo.edu/faculty/rprestia/1301/images/IN247%20Drag%20BST.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Osebergskipet-Detail.jpg

If you didn't know where it was from, you'd think it was Irish, but it's norse.

The Sutton Hoo finds also contain this kind of knot work (roughly 200 years before the Book of Kells)

[Loki]

The Saxon buried in his Longboat at sutton Hoo was very much a Pagan,his Saxon Heritage is just as much nordic as the Danish Viking's,why wouldnt his grave have a Nordic feel to it  .I dont doubt that the Lindisfarne and Kells gospels were influenced by a Nordic culture,but it was a Aenglish culture though.


Edit; sorry for hijacking your thread Dane 

[Dane]

The Saxon buried in his Longboat at sutton Hoo was very much a Pagan,his Saxon Heritage is just as much nordic as the Danish Viking's,why wouldnt his grave have a Nordic feel to it  .I dont doubt that the Lindisfarne and Kells gospels were influenced by a Nordic culture,but it was a Aenglish culture though.


Edit; sorry for hijacking your thread Dane 

Loki, no worries...I expected this to go in the direction it is heading. I have heard about that DNA study, and would love to take part, but I am only some Engish on my maternal side....English, Welsh, Scottish, but also French, German, and Dutch, and Italian and Sicilian from dad's side of the family. All confused is my ancestry. I like to think that in some of these horrific medieval and "dark ages" and ancient battles, all of my ancestors were beating each other up.

BTW, the art is wonderful and inspiring. Thanks all for posting it.

[Loki]

You'll like this then 
Its a recreation of the pictish stone found at Hilton Cadboll,impressive isnt it?




http://www.pictishstone.freeuk.com/Framesbase.htm